Lo! I just tested it, and he can. Quietust, I suspect it is faster to break that block with Tails. Also, I am testing a (possibly) slightly faster S-pipe exit at the end.
I actually encountered this myself, but when Tails broke the block I then had to walk forward far enough to 1-point jump up to the ledge (which took about 20-30 frames, almost the same amount of time saved from having Tails break the block). In any event, I'll test it to see exactly how many frames are gained/lost.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
This maneuver alone will get you an improvement of 36 frames over your current video, enough to knock your time down to 39 seconds:
7:54:43 Press and hold (Jump).
7:55:05 Release (Jump).
7:56:03 Press and hold (->).
7:56:46 Release (->). Press and hold (V).
7:56:51 Begin your spindash.
7:56:57 Release your spindash and all buttons.
If you are feeling adventurous, you may as well go back to 7:50:45 and let Tails break that block, instead. I believe that will let Sonic reach the next ledge faster, and besides, abuse of Tails is fun. Of course, if you do that, my times above obviously won't be correct, but I'm sure you can figure it out.
One last thing ... from 4-6 seconds, are you sure you have found the optimal way to get over that first seesaw and the spikes and lava afterwards?
P.S. Excellent use of spindashing on the seesaws! Very enjoyable!
I actually encountered this myself, but when Tails broke the block I then had to walk forward far enough to 1-point jump up to the ledge (which took about 20-30 frames, almost the same amount of time saved from having Tails break the block). In any event, I'll test it to see exactly how many frames are gained/lost.
You may try a 1-charge spindash jump up to the ledge, or something. I'm sure there's a way to milk frames out of Tails there. And if it's at least not slower, you may as well do it for style.
I just tried performing the actions at the times you specified (with Sonic breaking the block), and the times were completely off.
By letting Tails break the block, I was able to make it through the lava section a bit earlier and managed to get the "magic" speed back so I could land far enough forward for the final spindash. However, this only gained me 23 frames, which isn't quite enough to get 0:39. In any event, I've uploaded the new video for further analysis.
[edit] I've also determined a faster way of jumping over the initial seesaw - a slope-spinjump from just to the left. I end up taking damage from spikes, which is actually a good thing, since it throws me forward AND lands me at zero velocity for a quick spindash through the S-pipe. This, along with using Tails to bust the brick near the end, should get me 0:39.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
I knew there was a reason I couldn't sleep ...
You seem to have trouble with frame counts, so allow me to elucidate with pictures:
7:54:43 Press and hold (Jump).7:55:05 Release (Jump).7:56:03 Press and hold (->).7:56:46 Release (->). Press and hold (V).7:56:51 Begin your spindash.7:56:57 Release your spindash and all buttons. 39 seconds!
In case those pictures aren't explicit enough, here is an old version of your replay, modified with my faster ending path: http://www.geocities.com/xebranick/fix.zip .
Note that the replay I used didn't have the Tails trick or your modified path over the initial seesaw. Who knows, put them all together and you may hit 38.
(For those readers both curious and unfamiliar with the quirks of the Sonic 2 engine, note in the third to last picture that you can begin charging your spindash before you have even landed on the ground.)
With regard to the newest version of your video, why don't you just control Tails with controller 2? I suspect it's faster that way, but even if it's not, it looks cooler.
This just made me think of something else, as well. In the CN2 boss fight, Robotnik is not always flashing, because you can't get Sonic in position fast enough. If it's possible to get Tails back on the scene soon enough, you should control Tails at the same time and alternate hits when necessary.
I suppose there's something I should point out - I'm doing this entire run by directly controlling Sonic only. I suppose part of it is just a 'conduct' I'm adhering to, but the last time I tried controlling Tails directly I got a big fat desynch.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
You seem to have trouble with frame counts, so allow me to elucidate with pictures
I suggest you drop the condescending attitute right now before you seriously piss me off. Talking to an experienced player as if he is some sort of halfwit who doesn't know how to count frames is INCREDIBLY insulting.
*cough*
A better way to jump over the initial seesaw (which included taking damage, but it's okay since it lands me in the perfect position to spindash), using Tails to bust the brick near the end, and an improved final S-pipe exit technique (involved pulling back constantly until the ramp, minimizing jump height so I could land next to the ring box earlier - ended up 10 frames faster than xebra's method) allowed me to get the time down to 0:39. 0:38 *might* be possible, but it would require cutting off an additional 21-22 frames. Frankly, I'm willing to let somebody ELSE accomplish that in their own speedrun; I've spent way too much time on this level already.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 1:00
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
HOLY MOTHER OF WHOMEVER!!
I recently saw the rejected movie of Sonic2 at the submissions section, and it felt more like a good speedrun than a time-attack video.
i just watched your latest movie and my fucking jaw fell wide open countless of times.
I can't believe how fast you move at certain sections (especially with wall/loop jumping etc)
This is a job incredibly nicely done, and i can't WAIT for the others stages!
Ofcourse, with this i wish you the best of luck with further progress on the run.
God i love Sonic, this game series is made for these kind of movies. :)
Shortcuts can be particularly evil at times, especially the one in the above map ([edit] no longer available) which took me quite a while to figure out how to reach. This shortcut, along with other frame-advance-related optimizations, managed to improve my previous time by ten seconds.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:50
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
I even found a rather amusing bug during this level, where hitting a lava snake in just the right spot caused the game to completely lock up. Play this movie ([edit] no longer available) starting from this savestate ([edit] no longer available) (be sure to play it read-only!), then wait until shortly after the earthquake area.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
When I'm at spindash speed, I'm going fast enough that jumping doesn't help. I tested this extensively in Hill Top 1 and found that it's best to just run through the loop and spin at the very end.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
In many of the instances where you are trying to just squeeze over the lip of a ledge, you lose a few frames. Try to lower your clearance. While it is true that in order to do that you will have to traverse the portion immediately prior a tad slower, that is not as damaging as the painfully slow rate at which you rise up and fall back down to the ground with excess clearance.
Additionally, it is faster to stick a spindash in at ~31.8 seconds (~8:45:48). Perhaps you left it out because you can't decelerate fast enough to start far enough back to clear the next ledge with a 6-dash. That problem is easily solved by simply doing a 5-dash. (You may try experimenting with a spindash as early as 31.0 (~8:44:50), I did not test this but it's worth a look.)
Lastly, though I did not try it in tandem with with any of the above, I was able to save a few frames by breaking the block and spindashing straight to the wall before the long fall, so that I landed on the platform closest to the purple dragon, as opposed to the one farther to the left. (It's probably not even necessary to break the block since you can undoubtedly land right next to it, I recall there being space to do that ... so you should save even more time if that is true.)
I believe at least 2 seconds can come off this time.
In many of the instances where you are trying to just squeeze over the lip of a ledge, you lose a few frames. Try to lower your clearance. While it is true that in order to do that you will have to traverse the portion immediately prior a tad slower, that is not as damaging as the painfully slow rate at which you rise up and fall back down to the ground with excess clearance.
There's just one problem - y'see, there's some sort of bug in the game where if you land just barely on the edge of a platform from a running-up-the-wall jump, the game will completely lock your L/R controls for up to 30(!) frames once you land; this actually happened in my previous run. It took quite a bit of trial to get those jumps to land just barely far enough from the edge to avoid this, and that involved jumping slightly higher than usual.
It might be possible to avoid that by jumping from the bottom of the ramp in the first case (immediately after the loop), but NOT the second one since I was rolling at the time. Of course, then I'd have to redo the earthquake room (and with my luck, the shortcut would no longer work properly).
xebra wrote:
Additionally, it is faster to stick a spindash in at ~31.8 seconds (~8:45:48). Perhaps you left it out because you can't decelerate fast enough to start far enough back to clear the next ledge with a 6-dash. That problem is easily solved by simply doing a 5-dash. (You may try experimenting with a spindash as early as 31.0 (~8:44:50), I did not test this but it's worth a look.)
Lastly, though I did not try it in tandem with with any of the above, I was able to save a few frames by breaking the block and spindashing straight to the wall before the long fall, so that I landed on the platform closest to the purple dragon, as opposed to the one farther to the left. (It's probably not even necessary to break the block since you can undoubtedly land right next to it, I recall there being space to do that ... so you should save even more time if that is true.)
I believe at least 2 seconds can come off this time.
I'm more interested in how much time can ACTUALLY be saved, not just how much you think can be shaved off, since I doubt those changes alone would save the 120 frames necessary to gain an extra two seconds (I just barely got 0:50 in this trial).
Testing the first tactic, I was able to gain around 15 frames or so, all from the first jump (the 2nd slope cannot be optimized that way since I'm rolling from a spindash). Using the 2nd tactic and spindashing at the earlier point I was able to gain approximately 14 frames (gained even less from spindashing at the point you suggested). The 3rd suggestion gained the most - 23 frames, by landing next to the brick.
Overall, that adds up to about 52 frames, which is quite far from the 2 seconds you claimed. Did you even manage to get 0:48, or did you just make a random guess?
I've posted an updated movie using the 2nd and 3rd suggestions - using the 1st suggestion would require redoing most of the level, and I'd rather not do that just yet.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
There's just one problem - y'see, there's some sort of bug in the game where if you land just barely on the edge of a platform from a running-up-the-wall jump, the game will completely lock your L/R controls for up to 30(!) frames once you land;
I have not been able to observe this phenomenon. Are you referring to the lack of control you have when jumping from a roll? The oft overlooked fix to this is to not jump from a roll (that is, get on your feet first.)
You truly are losing a lot of time in these cases. For example, in the first instance where you do this, the first frame in which you are ducked (for the upcoming spindash) is 8:19:09. Without bothering to determine if any of my alterations were being performed optimally, I was able to be ducked at 8:18:59. In the second instance, you are ducked at 8:24:57, I was able to be ducked by 8:24:37. In the third instance you are ducked at 8:26:43, I was able to be ducked by 8:26:31.
I did not string together those strategies in my testing (that is, each improvement is self contained), so in total that's 42 frames. Along with the 52 frame improvement from the strategies in your previous post, that's just 26 frames from 2 seconds total. Now consider:
1) I didn't optimize any of my strategies (I didn't even play them with frame advance.)
2) In prior levels you have shown a remarkable capacity to further improve upon my ideas, once shown a more effective strategy.
3) If you choose to fix the ledge clearances, you will be redoing pretty much the entire level, and will undoubtedly find a few frames here and there as you go through it again.
What I am trying to say is 120 frames are clearly there for the taking. I will be shocked and disappointed if you can't find them.
P.S. You once (correctly) chastized me for my inappropriate and condescending attitude. Take care not to be hoist by your own petard. I think all we both really want is for you to make the best movie possible.
I'm not talking about jumping while rolling, I'm talking about walking up the side of the wall, which reverts me to walking in midair (or rolling in midair). If you land on the very edge of a platform from that condition, horizontal controls will be completely locked for about 30 frames worth of walking; if you jump, the lag simply gets delayed until you land again. Note that this does NOT happen if you simply jump up to the ledge, but that requires that you be running beforehand (which isn't an option on the 2nd jump after the loop, unless I jump out of the spindash and consequently lose all of my speed).
By jumping up as little as possible, your feet can hit the ground earlier but there will be a SIGNIFICANT delay before you can actually spindash.
The following movie ([edit] no longer available) illustrates this effect. Right after I jump up the ledge with the fire-throwing dude at the top, you will notice that I take several steps to the right before I turn around, yet I was holding left the entire time.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
I'm not talking about jumping while rolling, I'm talking about walking up the side of the wall, which reverts me to walking in midair (or rolling in midair).
Jump up the wall.
By jumping up as little as possible, your feet can hit the ground earlier but there will be a SIGNIFICANT delay before you can actually spindash.
I have not been able to observe this phenomenon. Jumping up the walls is how I beat your times.
The following movie illustrates this effect. Right after I jump up the ledge with the fire-throwing dude at the top, you will notice that I take several steps to the right before I turn around, yet I was holding left the entire time.
Movies of irrelevant problems aside, are you going to fix the ledge clearances? Do you understand what strategy I used, or would you like me to make a video of it?
I can jump easily on the first wall, but on the 2nd one I either have to run the entire way (which is far, far slower) or change it into a shallow spindash-jump (which still loses quite a bit of speed, but might be *slightly* faster).
And yes, I WILL fix the goddamn ledge clearances, but only after ALL other possible places to gain speed have been found, since that pretty much requires redoing the entire level (including the earthquake section, which is incredibly tedious). Also, it's not particularly easy to understand a strategy when you don't even explain it. What do you think I am, some sort of mind-reader?
On the very first ramp (after the S-pipe), jumping isn't an option because it's too high up. On the second ramp jump (right after the loop), I ALREADY managed to gain 15 frames (which you seemed to count again in your 'frames to save' total) in a trial run which I didn't include in the latest movie because it would've required redoing the entire level. On the third ramp, I'm rolling from a spindash so I can't make a controlled ramp jump - unless jumping before the ramp somehow retains enough speed, I don't see how it would be faster than my original method.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Also, it's not particularly easy to understand a strategy when you don't even explain it.
I apologize, I assumed my intentions (of jumping up all three ledges) were obvious. You seem to have some doubts as to the efficacy of doing so, so I will make a video showing you what I mean.
EDIT: http://www.geocities.com/xebranick/fix2.zip
This traversal of the three ledges is 47 frames faster than your original. You can probably improve upon it further.
7:55:05 Release (Jump).
7:56:03 Press and hold (->).
7:56:46 Release (->). Press and hold (V).
7:56:51 Begin your spindash.
7:56:57 Release your spindash and all buttons.
39 seconds!
In case those pictures aren't explicit enough, here is an old version of your replay, modified with my faster ending path: http://www.geocities.com/xebranick/fix.zip .
Note that the replay I used didn't have the Tails trick or your modified path over the initial seesaw. Who knows, put them all together and you may hit 38.
(For those readers both curious and unfamiliar with the quirks of the Sonic 2 engine, note in the third to last picture that you can begin charging your spindash before you have even landed on the ground.)
