MrGrunz: Are u absolutely sure that the beans are faster than the hookshot? It seems to me that entering the graveyard and grabbing the hookshot isn't that big of a detour when u are getting the egg anyways. This also saves some time in lost woods (hookshooting up ladder twice), in goron city, and one other place (I think it was outside lake hylia he hookshooted up the ladder). And this allows for getting the shield faster than we would otherwise. Also skipping the bridge in gerudo valley can be done with hookshot. Then there is the added time of getting the scarecrow song and the subtracted time of getting & planting the bean. In my head it seems pretty close.
MrGrunz: Are u absolutely sure that the beans are faster than the hookshot? It seems to me that entering the graveyard and grabbing the hookshot isn't that big of a detour when u are getting the egg anyways. This also saves some time in lost woods (hookshooting up ladder twice), in goron city, and one other place (I think it was outside lake hylia he hookshooted up the ladder). And this allows for getting the shield faster than we would otherwise. Also skipping the bridge in gerudo valley can be done with hookshot. Then there is the added time of getting the scarecrow song and the subtracted time of getting & planting the bean. In my head it seems pretty close.
If getting the hookshot as adault was the only thing saved you would be absolutely right. BUT you also have to get the scarecow song as a kid and that means you have to do a trip to lake hylia and get the Ruto bottle anyway. If you get there via zoras river or directly is largely irrelevant, since it's silver scale vs. golden scale and silver scale is faster.
And we actually get the Hylia shield faster with the bean route, since we buy it as a kid at Hyrule market. ;)
Only Tektite hover would save time over the bean route. If I see it correctly that would mean:
- Get deku shield and sword
- do old forest escape
- SS to Kakariko
- get Cucco bottle
- water ISS to Hyrule town
- buy Hylia shield
- DoT skip
and as adault just hover up to the pond.
I'm having trouble with this megaflip off the tektite. I'm rolling at last frame possible for the tektite to still hit your shield, then backflipping at the soonest frame possible for the tektite to hit your shield, it always just hits my shield and then I do a regular backflip. What should I be doing instead?
If bloobielba can get within a couple pixels just using tektites if you used a guay for the megaflip after getting max height off the tektites you should be able to do it.
Of course doing without the guay would be faster but if can't be done guay would be the next best thing.
The question is can you use the guay successfully? It would be tricky because it will fly away after about 10 seconds or so you have to catch its attention, then hover up to max tektite height in about 10 seconds which is pushing it, then still have it worked out so that the will go in for another attack on you right before it leaves. I think you might need to start with 2 tektites and have then lined up and staggered so you can do two backflips off each, then the first tektite should circle around you while you're backflipping off the second and you could do 1 more back flip off it to gain max height as it'd be jumping from the higher ground.
I'll test this as soon as I figure out how to megaflip.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
as I'm working at this as well, I can tell you something about it
last frame doesn't mean best frame. try different frame combinations and try megasidehopping at first.
when you find out, on which frame the mega sidehop works, try mega flipping on the same frame. the thing is, even if you can megasidehop on a certain frame, you are sometimes not able to mega flip on the same frame, because if you are too high, the tektike is unable to hit you after you backflip for the mega flip
And we actually get the Hylia shield faster with the bean route, since we buy it as a kid at Hyrule market. ;)
No.
U have to get the rupies, get to the shop, buy shield, leave shop and get back to regular route.
as opposed to entering the grave while at graveyard, grabbing the shield and then leaving.
Probably not many seconds faster, but to claim that the first is faster than the second is propostrious.
I do ofc agree that buying the shield is faster if u skip hookshot though.
The way I see it is that hookshot + scarecrow song is not much slower than beans (if it really is slower like most people here seem to agree upon). The big difference would be if u didn't have to visit Lake Hylia at all to grab bottle/learn song/plant bean.
So gl to the ppl working on this ;D
And we actually get the Hylia shield faster with the bean route, since we buy it as a kid at Hyrule market. ;)
No.
U have to get the rupies, get to the shop, buy shield, leave shop and get back to regular route.
as opposed to entering the grave while at graveyard, grabbing the shield and then leaving.
Probably not many seconds faster, but to claim that the first is faster than the second is propostrious.
Yeah I chose the wrong word there. Forgive a non nativ english speaker, will you? ;) I meant "sooner".
But it probably will be faster. gathering the ruppes is really done on the way, as we get some through the diving game and the rest while swimming down ZR.
So it's basically buying the shield from the shop or getting it from the grave and I would guestimate that the shop is slightly faster.
The way I see it is that hookshot + scarecrow song is not much slower than beans (if it really is slower like most people here seem to agree upon). The big difference would be if u didn't have to visit Lake Hylia at all to grab bottle/learn song/plant bean.
Well "much" is relative for a TAS. I would estimate about a minute. That's not much for a normal run, but hughe for a TAS.
Though Grunz really knows the difference better. So Grunz what do you think, how much time will the bean route save?
About the Tektite hover... I'm not quite sure if the guay idea will work out because there are only a few seconds between when it starts following you and when it starts turning away. I don't think you could position the guay by the ledge, run towards the Tektites, gain height, and superflip before it flies away from the ledge area. I haven't tested anything with the guay much more than a couple of attempts but it didn't seem very plausible at the time.. I'll give Spider-Waffle's idea a shot, but if we're dragging a guay and 2 tektites over to the fishing pond then we may be spending more than a couple of minutes which is all this trick is really saving.
It's unfortunate that the superflips don't work if you're a bit too high up, like Grunz said, because that's what's making this trick difficult to consider whether it's possible or not =[. It seems that even on frames where a supersidehop is easily possible, you are far from being able to superflip off of it. It's very hard to tell :(. When you guys are trying this make sure you're staying close to the wall, and that you aren't too close to the ledge when you superflip; attempts where I start further from the ledge and work my way in tend to be the closest.
Do you think we could manipulate the tektite to jump higher or at diffrent angles by maybe rolling or moving in a direction before the real roll? I think I used this while trying to tas the kokiri wood escape. Made the deku shoot higher than he did when I tried to hold other buttons... And I do not know if this manipulates the deku nut, deku shooter OR Link's position... all I know is that sometimes It hit me and other times it didn't... But I guess you have all tried to manipulate it already with lots of tries... havn't tried to tas a tektite hover yet... might give it a shot...
Maybe this has already been done, but have you guys tried manipulating the position variables in MHS to determine exactly how high you have to be to make the ledge? It would also be useful to know exactly at what point during the megaflip Link is considered to be the highest.
This may also help to determine exactly how close you have come on your best attempts as well. It is obviously ridiculously hard to optimize floating point values.
Ya a height memory address would be really useful.
As for the guay, I think I roughly timed that it takes about 50 seconds to lure it over there from the time you enter LH, compared to about 18 for just sidehopping there normally. So using the guay takes about 32 extra seconds.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Awesome, it's finally possible :D. And I was able to do it with just the one Tektite. I have no way to record videos or post files at the moment but I'll be able to in a few hours. Hooray for a much shorter child segment :D
Yeah that seems most likely fastest. Although with the water ESS strategy we can't skip the first owl cutscene, we can't superslide off of the peahat, and we have to talk to the owl on the way out of Kakariko... has this been timed? The water ESS strategy still seems faster but it might be worth timing.
OH GOD PLEASE NO, THAT TRICK IS GOING TO BE A NIGHTMARE TO PULL OFF NEVER MIND OPTIMIZE
I guess it's back to square one again where we're effectively using the same route as the old WIP except we'll need to get 80 rupee's before entering HM so we can buy the shield.
Why wouldn't you get deku sticks to skip the first owl scene?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
