Video Plugin: Jabo's Direct3D8 1.6 (dont forget to check "Copy framebuffer to RDRAM"
Sound Plugin: Azimer's HLE Audio v0.56 WIP 1
Input Plugin: N-Rage`s Direct-Input8 V2 1.80a
RSP Plugin: Hacktarux/Azimer hle rsp plugin
The playback of this run comes to a speedy end by means of many glitches and using JPN rom. This rom can show the message quickly than others. They'll allow to complete this game within an hour.
All of the glitches and some techniques I used are only existing one. I deeply appreciated people's great discoveries and researches.
Incidentally, this run was made as just amusing movie for Japanese video site. After the putting on view in the site, I was proposed trying to submit to TASVideos. So this run contains some joking factors, slow parts and going through old route. That's why It'll able to be clipped several minutes off the records in the run.
However, as a result of thinking, I decided to submit because I won't try again in the near future.
Although opinions may vary on using JPN rom, I hope you like it.
The following glitches and techniques are mainly used:
Escape forest with water jumpslash ESS
Skip the owl with Deku Stick
Get Gold scale in childhood
Skip Door of Time
Steal Rod
Bottle Adventure
Skip Gerudo Bridge with Hookshot
Skip Ganon's Castle Trials with Bomb Hovering
SS to Ganon to keep Master Sword
adelikat: The ending input was way longer than necessary. I chopped it and replaced the movie file. This movie is sub 1 hour!
mmbossman: The two main goals of this site are to provide entertaining movies which are typically as fast as possible. However, sometimes one facet takes more precedence than the other. We have several well optimized movies which are less than entertaining to watch, and we have some that have known improvements but have been published because they are very entertaining. Usually these known improvements are small, however the improvements they provide to the previously published movie are usually small as well. Here, the improvement is clearly much more substantial.
So that leads us to two possible solutions: 1) accept this run for what it is, an entertaining run with some flaws that obsoletes one of the two runs we currently have which can be beat in real time, or 2) reject it due to known improvements and mildly suboptimal level of play. After reading through all the responses in the discussion thread, I feel it better benefits the site and our viewers to accept and publish this run. Do I wish this run integrated some more of the known tricks which have been pointed out? Sure I do. However I don't believe that it is a wise decision to await a "perfect" run which may never come, while in the mean time continuing to have a run published which is worse than a real time run. So I am accepting this submission.
This acceptance will not result in a change of policy regarding (U) ROMs being preferable to (J) ROMs. Any future improvements should use the (U) ROM, and any resulting time lost due to slower text screens will not be used to penalize that submission, just as any time gained from faster text screens was not factored into the judging decision for this run.
Aktan: Processing... (taking forever to audio sync it)
EZGames69: For anyone planning on encoding this in the future. Make sure you use the same plugins that are listed, especially the input plugin as using the wrong one can cause a desync. And also make sure "Raw Data" is checked in the plugin settings for the input plugin. and finally for the RSP plugin, make sure you select "set to process alists inside the rsp". That should be all.
I don't really see the valid points of 'fuss' over this one.
1. It's (J), but it won't be (U) until someone makes the effort to translate the method. There's no guarantee that someone will.
2. (U) beats (J) by the site rules, but won't exclude it. For this run, it shouldn't be excluded, because it masterfully plays with the glitches compared to what's up now.
3. Someone mentioned that replacing a (J) run with a slightly longer (U) run would make the future version seem sloppy. People who see such an increased time as being sloppy would have to not watch said run, or they would have to be quite unfamiliar with TAS runs in general. Uninformed people have no business deciding what's best. English is, quite simply, more entertaining to native English speakers. TAS videos, for all their technological accomplishments, are entertainment. I think enough people are familiar with this game that the language difference doesn't hurt as much as the massive time reduction helps.
The only thing I see that's really holding this back is tradition and familiarity.
As a nod to the admins, I'm glad I'm not involved in resolving this matter. I'd hate to have to deal with an actual split opinion on such a desirable TAS choice, and be responsible for owning up to whichever side 'loses' the argument due to the decision.
Yes vote from me, because I didn't get bored while watching something I wanted to see, unlike the other run. This is just massively better in terms of speed. The other run is pretty good at showing off the game, but it's not even close to being this quick.
My vote is a weak yes. There were mistakes, but certainly little that the average would notice. Despite the imprecision, I was very entertained by this run and I wish to see it on the site, regardless of any improvements that may pop up this summer.
I don't want to see the site schism over one controversial video. I love coming here and seeing your work and submitting my own work, waiting with baited breath while the votes pour in. Let's not traumatize abeshi any more with our poo flinging.
Just my two cents.
My current project: Something mysterious (oooooh!)
My username is all lower-case letters. Please get it right :(
in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever.
The hell? So, it's specifically because the average viewer will think this is such an awesome TAS that you're wanting to block it? Head. Desk. Head. Desk.
Is this really what TASing is? An esoteric software engineering exercise for a small clique of elite gamers to enjoy amongst themselves for their towering achievements in practically applying technical expertise and knowledge? Honestly, in some ways this site is like an academic symposium full of professors droning on endlessly about their thesis research, and I mean that in both the most complimentary and the most derisive sense possible. Yes, the technical prowess of a competent TASer inspires me with both respect and awe, but on the other hand, I've never much cared for the frame-count dick measuring contest so many of them seem fixated on.
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer? In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
you might have realized, that my english skills are ultra limited, so I'm not really able to get what I actually want to say on to paper
I just mentioned a huge problem when it comes to TASing in general. now that I think about it again this can't be an aspect not to publish this TAS, because it appears for every game
the thing is, the lazy TASer is always the winner. the average viewer doesn't notice wether you saved the 6 frames you worked 5 hours on or not ;)
this also appears to this run. it isn't greatly optimized, but the average viewer won't notice a huge difference between a fully optimized run and this one.
In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
I'd have done a new OoT TAS already, if I didn't work on a new Majora's Mask TAS. As I'm focusing on Majora's Mask you have to blame swordless and AKA for haven't done the TAS yet :P
and no, I'm not trying to sabotage this TAS. I just list facts. fact is, this TAS is not very well TASed. you can't say anything against this statement.
you are actually also not able to tell me, wether this is greatly optimized or not, because you aren't TASing this game ;)
other than that, I somehow changed my opinion. this site is about competition and what will motivate swordless and co. more to do this TAS than publishing this run?
I said my opinion and my opinion is, that I don't like the run. you guys might think differently, but you aren't TASing this game, so I see it from another point of view, but I'm actually not that much against a publication like slowking or swordless link ;)[/quote]
Limne wrote:
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer?
oh shit, I've never seen such sentences, that made me want to TAS OoT more than this.
go watch the WIP of my Majora's Mask TAS then you'll see how ninja link can get in this games, if you do it right <_<
Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
At the moment, I see arguments being made by/for (at least) three groups of people here.
The first is our mythical general viewer, about whom the general consensus seems to be that will find this run interesting, and who will not see substantial flaws in the run.
On the other end we have our TASers who have worked with the game specifically, who have pointed out deficiencies in route selection, optimisation in individual movement, and a whole host of other flaws of that nature.
Somewhere in the middle is the rest of our community - that is, TASers at large. Here things are a little more tenuous, but my interpretation of the thread to this point (feel free to disagree with me here) is that our average TASer not intimately familiar with the game either also doesn't notice the flaws, or notices said flaws but considers them to be minor.
We're not just publishing this run for viewers in general, or for TASers of this game specifically, or for TASers in general. We are aiming to publish this for all of those groups, and it seems that the consensus is that this run is entertaining enough and technically capable enough to all but the most experienced eyes to be publishable.
The community as a whole has spoken - check out the voting tally at the top. This is not perfect, but it is good enough.
this site is about competition and what will motivate swordless and co. more to do this TAS than publishing this run.
No. No. And NO. This site is about entertainment, and this TAS has succeded in that. Your just basically insulting the author about the language barrier and thats kinda racist actually.
does anyone have a gun for me?
@sonnikkustar
how ignorant are you? seriously, that's close to insulting me
I clearly, fucking CLEARLY said, that the language doesn't play a rule for me.
I wrote that in my posts <_<
I even said, that I'm not against publishing this run, I just listed all the possible improvements and said, that this run isn't greatly optimized, so I wouldn't be happy about publishing this run ;)
and now you tell me, that I'm racist? god, this pisses me off
why can't I come here and list my opinion without getting flamed from every site?
am I in the right position to critize this TAS or not? as a TASer of this game I am and I should be allowed to say, that this run isn't well TASed <_<
in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever.
The hell? So, it's specifically because the average viewer will think this is such an awesome TAS that you're wanting to block it? Head. Desk. Head. Desk.
Is this really what TASing is? An esoteric software engineering exercise for a small clique of elite gamers to enjoy amongst themselves for their towering achievements in practically applying technical expertise and knowledge? Honestly, in some ways this site is like an academic symposium full of professors droning on endlessly about their thesis research, and I mean that in both the most complimentary and the most derisive sense possible. Yes, the technical prowess of a competent TASer inspires me with both respect and awe, but on the other hand, I've never much cared for the frame-count dick measuring contest so many of them seem fixated on.
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer? In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
The reason many like TASes is because it's like programming but more badass, so I'd say yes, that's spot on.
I voted yes, because, with the understanding that once the current OoT TAS is finished and obsoletes this, this will be off the first result for OoT TASes. If it's faster, it's faster. End of story.
If it makes you feel better, feel free to note that this run makes entertainment vs. speed tradeoffs.
"We also prefer quality over quantity - a poor quality run will not be accepted whether it is a game new to the site or an improvement to a pre-existing run"
I'm thinking that since this run is improvable by so much, it really shouldn't be accepted.
What about if I beat this run in real-time? Would TASvideos accept it?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Sheesh. People, calm down.
No need to flame and bash each other (plus it's against the rules).
Everyone has opinions, but no one should be flamed for them. Everyone needs to keep the discussion at a friendly level.
(I shouldn't have to mention this, nor should anyone else for that matter.)
andrewg wrote:
"We also prefer quality over quantity - a poor quality run will not be accepted whether it is a game new to the site or an improvement to a pre-existing run"
I'm thinking that since this run is improvable by so much, it really shouldn't be accepted.
What about if I beat this run in real-time? Would TASvideos accept it?
I like to see it from a different view. Just because there are tricks and routes that aren't in there doesn't automatically mean it's lower quality.
Quality to me is the overall impressiveness of the movie. If it looks outright bad, then no matter how fast it is, reject it. But if that isn't the case, even if it suboptimal, then I say accept it, because clearly it meets the quality demands of the site, even though it could be better.
But then again, we don't reset a run everytime we need a new route or trick, do we?
Just fyi for you people:
I wasn't against publishing this TAS. I was "meh" towards it.
I just wanted to secure that the next runners are granted the same privileges this runner was. Meaning the J rom. Since it is clearly a lot faster to use it.
And yeah I know that text speed doesn't figure into the judging but it does in the perception of the (very often spoken about) general viewer. It's just not fair for the guys making the next run to compete against a J rom with a U rom.
But in the end I probably shouldn't worry. It seems you will accept any OoT run that is reasonably fast, no matter how many rules are screwed, anyway. So if they just do the run on J 1.2 they will be fine. ^^
Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
MrGrunz wrote:
am I in the right position to critize this TAS or not? as a TASer of this game I am and I should be allowed to say, that this run isn't well TASed <_<
Healthy criticism of the TAS is encouraged.
Name-calling and personal attacks of the sort that a handful of people in the thread (and I am not accusing anyone specifically) are engaging is not.
There was a post made here a few moments ago (which the author fortunately deleted) completely unacceptable in that respect.
Keep it to the run itself, not anything to do with the people posting here. You have all been warned, and I will not put up with further unnecessary hostility.
@sonikkustar
I read your nice little comment. you deleted it a bit too late ;)
so you are saying, that I brought 2 completely different opinions (no need to say something about the thing you wrote afterwards).
so read this topic again. I clearly wrote:
"I somehow changed my opinion now, I'm not against publishing this run anymore, because you brought good points"
forgot what else you wrote, only remember the insult thing. you called me racist out of no reason. I wrote, that language doesn't play a rule for me and then you call me a racist.
I should be allowed to call you ignorant then ;)
let's just stop this, it's pointless.
sonnikkustar, please calm down again and don't take this here to serious ;)
you might have realized, that my english skills are ultra limited, so I'm not really able to get what I actually want to say on to paper
Is that so? I'm terribly sorry then. I might have phrased things a bit differently if I knew you had trouble with English. I usually rely on people's location to make myself aware of these things.
hmm Raiscan, to me this website is about TASing a game to its limits, so saving every fucking frame possible, while still trying to entertain.
I think that we have very different opinions on what a TAS should be. As I see it, entertainment is the primary goal. Optimization is simply one of many tools a TASer can use to create entertainment.
Offline, my main expertise is as a visual artist. To be a great artist requires a great deal of technique; you need to know perspective, proportion, optics, color theory, composition, anatomy, and the structure of everything you draw. These skills take many, many years to acquire, but while these alone may make you a great draftsman, they will not make you a great artist. Technique alone quickly becomes a stilted kind of formalism doomed to invariantly retread the proper way of doing things. Academic styles such as this inevitably stagnate because they provide so few of the creative liberties that give art its life and power. For a great artist, technique is simply the tool that allows them to explore their imagination and create beauty.
As I see it, TASing today is like the old Academic styles: obsessed with technique to a fault. To see a game beaten as quickly as possible, frame-by-frame, is not art, its an exercise in game theory not unlike solving board games. What makes a TAS art is that it shows off the possibilities inherent to the God-like player: pulling off complex feats of skill no human being ever could and exploring aspects of the gameplay others never though existed. TASs have this quality, but today such things are considered a nicety aside from the all-important frame count.
and no, I'm not trying to sabotage this TAS. I just list facts. fact is, this TAS is not very well TASed. you can't say anything against this statement.
you are actually also not able to tell me, wether this is greatly optimized or not, because you aren't TASing this game ;)
This is true. I've never TASed anything in my life. Chances are I never will, at least not for this site. But again, I think it's something like art. I show people a lot of my work and they think its awesome because "they can only draw stick figures." Still, because I know these things I can identify the errors in perspective and proportion; I know that my work is actually bad. On the other hand, I don't find it discouraging that common people can't properly gauge good and bad technique; Anyone could tell you which is better drawn between a Renaissance master and some 13-year-old's anime on Deviant Art even if they could never identify what technical features make it so much better. People may not be good judges of what's "good" or "bad," but most of them can still tell apart what's "better" and "worse."
As I see it, what matters is giving people something they can enjoy. If they're happy with something "bad," so be it. But chances are that if you give people something "better" they'll know for themselves that it is better once they see it, and that's why it's always best to strive for perfection.
oh shit, I've never seen such sentences, that made me want to TAS OoT more than this.
Since this game doesn't look to be rated just like the other game, here some criteria proposition for any future submission.
- "If the new submission isn't about framewar(~2-5minute max?)": then accept the run wathever the language is.
==> In this kind of submission, there should be new interesthing glitch... keep everything fully optimized is optionnal.
- "If the new submission is about framewar(~2-5minute max?)": The US version should have an extra entertainement bonus toward the general audience.
==> In this kind of submission, the (U) rom don't have to beat the old (J) rom run, even if the public interest/request for the run is probably lower than something new.
- "If the new submission don't beat an old non-assisted run": refuse the submission.
I feel like a huge miserstanding never been enough clarified about how this game is judged by the staff... might be something important for the OoT TASer.
sonnikkustar, please calm down again and don't take this here to serious ;)
Youre right. Sorry. I accidentally brought over my anger from elsewhere over to here. I'm also very blind so I cant read well at-all.
I actually should have just said that I voted Yes on this. XD
Sure its unoptimized to belief, but that should give an even bigger motivation to obsolete it. Im just saying. Plus it gives us something to tie us over with in the mean time.
I truly apologize MrGrunz. Please forgive me. ;_;
*Runs to the corner*
@limne
finally, finally someone that is able to write normally. I totally understand your point, but still, when I'm TASing, I'm aiming for perfection and usually while aiming for perfection, I always try to see, whatever I can do to make the TAS look also really entertaining.
the problem might be, that I've only TASed MM/OoT and for those games it appears, that speed brings the entertainment you want, especially when TASing MM, which is what I'm currently doing. you'd have to watch my WIP to understand what I mean. the kind of art I'm usually using is, that I try to come up with weird and shocking strategies to clear every section as quickly as possible. this might also make a fully optimized OoT TAS ultra entertaining, but OoT is more limited than MM when it comes to this
and @sonikkustar
I'm glad, that you are normal again, because I was very confused from the things you wrote. of course I forgive you^^
and yes, I agree, that publishing this TAS will motivate the great 3 of OoT to make their TAS now, but not everybody would react the same way, when this gets published
Hello everyone,
In high periods of traffic, video quality in nicovideo.jp gets reduced for common users (it's called economic mode) and, sometimes, videos go super fast and skip everything after some point
The encoder of the run saw that happening and uploaded another video that doesn't skip things anymore during economic mode: http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm10040622
Hope it helped who's trying to watch it
thanks a lot,
here is the mp4 of your video for those like me who don't like streaming :)
http://ftpdugeni.free.fr/idee/TASzelda.mp4
anyway, it seems that this submition became *again* a debate on the rules, so let me get back to the votes :
did i found the run entertaining ? : yes, the gliches where funny and kinda surprising
does this run obselete the current published run ? : yes, by more than a hour it seems
is the submition optimal ? : since i didn't saw any other OoT submition with a better time, i'd say "for now, yes"
should it be published and obselete the current run ? : yes.
about the J vs U rom,
the runner skipped like 90% of the game, i don't think that language actualy mater at this point since, even if there is a plot it's totaly skipped...
and it's not like everybody perfectly know the plot of this game....
again, I'm not caring about the language at all, I just want to answer Nicos ;)
the language saves all together 4 minutes of the whole TAS. Aleckermit timed this a while back
And yeah I know that text speed doesn't figure into the judging but it does in the perception of the (very often spoken about) general viewer. It's just not fair for the guys making the next run to compete against a J rom with a U rom.
Okay, this is starting to make sense, but the average viewer will still prefer to watch a run of the game in a language that they understand rather than a language they don't. And English is more widely spoken than Japanese, which is the whole reason for the rule.
In other words: the language will factor in to the average viewer's opinion in the sense that they will always prefer an English version, even if some time is lost due to text.
I apologize for calling you deliberately obtuse.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
kay, this is starting to make sense, but the average viewer will still prefer to watch a run of the game in a language that they understand rather than a language they don't.
I think that's debatable. There seem to be two general positions on the matter:
1) If the game is completely broken and incomprehensible anyway it might as well speed through the cut scenes as quickly as possible using the J-ROM because there are a lot of them and they're boring.
2) Because the game is so broken and incomprehensible it really ought to use English because there are a lot of cut scenes left and it would be nice to at least be able to follow some readable dialogue amidst the glitchiness and chaos.
Both are reasonable preferences I think, but I do feel for the runners. To demand that future runners pit the U-ROM against the J-ROM really does sound like it puts them in an awkward position whether or not it ultimately effects judging.
Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Limne wrote:
To demand that future runners pit the U-ROM against the J-ROM really does sound like it puts them in an awkward position whether or not it ultimately effects judging.
This is partly why the rule exists in the first place. Historically there have been many instances of swapping back and forth between J and U ROMs with little if any justification given, leading to a lot of ill will and bad blood.
The rule is meant to clarify what should happen in the event that there is no substantive difference in running between the two versions and defuse that sort of argument.
As I have said, time savings during text in cutscenes are a misnomer; it is the gameplay itself that people should be focusing on. This being the case, a run being hard to follow or not based on the cutscenes alone is a bit of a misnomer. TASes are not meant to be easy to follow; they are meant to complete games as quickly, as thoroughly, and/or as entertainingly as possible, and in my view the entertainment value is in the gameplay, not in anything that the language present has any impact on.
