Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Hmm I just discovered a major flaw in my movie - I forgot to pick up the HORN! And I who was almost done... Well, what are you gonna do... I still expect to be done within 3 days, so don't worry.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
jxq2000 wrote:
Three days, huh? Hmm...
Princess Tomato In The Salad Kingdom.
I'm just gonna throw that out there.
Umm... oookaaaay. I have no idea what you mean by that.
Anyhow, I do even believe that I can finish this tomorrow, I mean, I have done about 75% as of right now, and most of that I did today. So it's quite possible to finish it tomorrow.
Yes, I agree with you yarbles... I thought for some time to redo part of the movie and get the broom, because that was the answer to the first question the Sphinx asked me. But after doing some short calculations, it would all end up being at most 10 frames faster, if it would be faster at all. I can't be sure that he asks the same questions at the same frames when I get to him that time!
And I believe that the horseshoe is the "riddle-item" that is least out of the way, so I think I'll stick with that item, unless it turns out that there is another riddle item that is faster to use.
So I think I'll leave things as they are right now. And after all, I use these 27 frames to move the cursor around a bit, so I don't waste these frames by standing still and get a 0,5 boring second in the movie. I mean, you can't stand still for half a second in TAS, now can you? :)
Fair enough. One of the nice things about doing it tool-assisted is you can test it both ways and find out precisely which way is faster (using the frame counter). I see you completed and submitted the run, I will check it out later when I get a chance.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Crap. I had no idea that someone was improving my run. 10 seconds seems like a reasonable amount of time. But on the other hand it means I did a lot of mistakes. Well, good job though.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Hey, sorry to necromance, but I noticed something that might be useful for improving the published run. From what I remember, it is not necessary to kill the goblin with the Sword.
Currently, you knock him down with the Sling, and then you stab him with the Sword. If you don't stab him, he will be back the next time you visit this screen. However, on that next visit, you've cast the Humana spell, and I think it is still in effect when you are at this screen. Thus, even though the goblin is alive, you can safely walk past him to the next room.
Assuming this works, would it save time to avoid picking up / using the sword?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
I'd love to get a script for this badboy, so I can figure out exactly how many actions/moves can be made with a torch before it burns out, as I recall some actions don't diminish the torch while others do.
I dunno.. I'm a sucker for this one. It was my first Kemco Seika game and introduction to the awesomeness of a storybook style title.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Wow, I just tested your idea mklip2001, and it worked beautifully - this should save quite some time since I now neither have to pick up the sword or kill the cyclops - perhaps I won't even have to throw key1 in the lake now, since I'll have one less item on me at this point anyway. I'll get right down to work with this, though I can't say how long it will take. Thanks again.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Sure, glad you got it to work! I remember reading that tip from some strategy guide, but I can't remember which one. Truth be told, I knew about this gimmick back when you submitted the last published run, but I was still lurking then and didn't feel like registering just to share that info.
I can't think of anything else to improve the run. With this new item route, would this change the best item to use with the Sphinx?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
mklip2001 wrote:
I can't think of anything else to improve the run. With this new item route, would this change the best item to use with the Sphinx?
The horse shoe will still be the best sphinx item to get - skipping the sword won't really change anything that is related to the sphinx.
By taking the sword, I won't have to throw key1 in the lake, so after the lake room my item list will look almost identical to the published run, to the point where I should probably be able to copy large chunks from the published run without risk of desynch.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
andrewg wrote:
Interesting... I'm curious, what kinds of glitches exist in this game? Are many exploited?
There exists a very peculiar glitch involving the glasses (a user here named Lusk PM:ed me about this a long time ago) - basically, the glasses are bugged so you can pick it up while it's in your inventory, giving you another pair of glasses. You can then repeat this act as many times as you want - in the end, your item list will overflow and the game starts writing to RAM addresses that it really shouldn't mess with - pretty much crashing the game. I have tried finding a use for this glitch, but haven't found anything.
EDIT: The cyclops idea doesn't seem to work - what happens is that when I'm about to pass him the second time (after having cast Humana), I get the message "you're afraid to get near it" - the only way to solve this is to hit him with the sling again, but this isn't possible since I don't have another stone with me, and even if I do pick up one more stone this trick will no longer save time.
I looked in to this matter some more, to find out exactly when you get this message. The "afraid flag" is pulled down when you have thrown a stone at the cyclops, however, it is raised again as soon as you leave this room, and the only way to pull it down again is to throw another stone at the cyclops.
Any idea how to solve this? Otherwise it pains me to say that this trick probably isn't of any use in the TAS. Here's the movie if anyone wants to take a look at it. It goes up to the second visit to the cyclops room, where you'll see that I can't pass the cyclops.
(The reason why I got it to work before was because I used memory poke to revive the cyclops again on my second visit, but I didn't consider that there was another RAM address involved)
A Runnelid mentioned in a previous post, "I'm not sure you need to put a stone in the slingshot to use it properly, but I told WalkerBoh about this and he didn't use it, so maybe my memory is off." Has this been looked at? If it is proven, it could solve the problem of not having another stone.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Oh boo, I'm sorry to hear the sword skip didn't work (or at least didn't work well enough to save time).
As another possibility, when you cross the bridge with the troll the second time, you attempt to cross, causing the troll to surface with the spear you threw the first time. Is it possible to just cast Humana without moving forward first? Or does the troll have to be present on the screen for Humana to work?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Unfortunately you can't cast Humana without getting the troll to appear first - if you try to do so, you get the message: "Uh oh, the wind has suddenly died down! Nothing happens! There must be something missing!" Nice idea though, that was yet another thing I didn't consider in the published run. Please keep these innovative ideas coming. :)
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Huh. When the game responds to you like that, that's a more blatant clue than usual :-)
I finally sat down to watch through the run (the rest of my comments were solely from memory of the game). One thought for optimization is torch locations: I wasn't sure if grabbing two torch's in the area with the Wraith was good, but it seemed alright in the end since you have to get the Cloak anyway.
Anyway, I do have another idea. Currently, you use Humana the second time you see the troll. Does he accept gold coins as payment, like he says the first time you meet him? I was wondering whether it was worth it to take two gold coins out of the coin bag and use one to pay him. I imagine this is a pretty significant route change, but if it works, then you may not need to talk to the sorcerer for the Humana spell, nor do you need to pick up the blue gem. It might require throwing another item in the lake, like Key 2 or so.
Lastly, have you tried left+right or up+down or something like that? Do those have any efect?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
The troll doesn't accept gold coins the second time you meet him him - after the first gold coin, he says he just raised the toll to 2 gold coins, and if you give him another coin he says he has changed his mind and kills you. So you can never cross the bridge by bribing the troll, neither on your first nor your second visit.
Left+right has the same effect as pressing right, and up+down has the same effect as pressing down. I haven't found anything weird to happen when pressing left+right or up+down in this game.
I think that another potential improvement is when I use items that I need to use on SELF, like the gauntlet and the cloak - perhaps there are better places to use them on SELF than in the published run...
I'm learning to speedrun this game for SDA, and decided to see if I could find a different route. I have one listed currently in the thread linked below that saves 1 dialogue for opening a door, and at least 2 inventory transitions. Beyond that however, I don't know if the navigation time through the game is actually faster. Also, the route itself could use a better eye from someone who's run the game before. Please take a look, it may help us both to find a faster route:
http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/shadowgate_nes_13.html
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Very interesting, I'll definitely take a look at this when I get home from work. I'm always glad someone else is showing interest in these games. :) I know of some small improvements to the published TAS (at least theoretical, a lot depends on good luck when talking to the sphinx).
For the Sphinx in real-time, it'll just be a crap-shoot. If I have the right item, then the run continues, if I don't, then it ends.
I'm pretty sure what I have up right now can be improved, so I'm glad to see that you're going to look into it.
I don't know if this helps much. The most likely question is the horseshoe, but all of them are quite probable.
Another thing that is random (I don't know if you know this) is the number of lightnings the warlock summons. This accounts for several seconds, so it's quite a lot of time that depends on this. This random event works just like the sphinx - it's all frame based, so for a real time speedrun it all depends on how lucky you are.
