I have started my own run. Currently someplace in the opening corridor. Used FCEUX 2.1.2. Config -> PPU -> New PPU.
At the moment, I'm trying to decide between shooting that last ring of comets or sitting in the middle like I did and escape without damage.
I'm planning to try a 100% run. I also plan to show off all levels of every weapon, even at the expense of time. As a 100% run, I feel some variety is desired so as to differentiate it from any%.
Would like to know how I'm doing so far, even though I haven't completed the opening corridor yet.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Artistically, that was a lovely start. Really liked how you synced your movement with the music. I will watch every wip of yours to give feedback. Go FattyRat!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I love the idea of a 100% movie of this game, especially one showing off all the weapons.
It's really hard to make a judgment on the movie based off what little there is so far, but I will also be keeping an eye out for WIPs and watching them.
I've beaten the first boss. But I need to check a few things like how many frames I can save on the boss and the blocks of inactivity before and after said boss.
Sure, I fail to hit a lot of things. However, "maximum kills" or "maximum score" isn't my primary goal. Being quirky and showing off is, especially when I can get the music itself involved. Things will still be done in a timely manner, and I'll do my best to compare the fastest strategy with what I do instead.
As for the boss, it seems as though the same bullet can hit multiple turrets at once, which explains why I park myself in between turrets. Part of how I rip the many turrets apart so quickly.
I'll let things sink in for a few days before I continue.
As for planning, the first thing I should check is whether death warps can be useful. Complete a corridor with 0 health remaining, then let some enemy finish you off after you win and collect the item. If we find the death warp useful, it could be a useful way of getting around after going deep into some area.
There are 12 sub-weapons, not counting NO USE. 11 of them have 3 levels each, so that's 34 different effects to show off. Each pause will eat up some frames, and there will be no way of getting those frames back when considering most switches. The single beam saber is the optimal weapon for most bosses, and switching out of it will likely just slow you down. Great to keep the saber for any%, but it kind of becomes stale in 100%, which is why I'm considering showing off a bit rather than aim for fastest 100% time.
What's the definition of 100%? Later on, there are shops that can give no further benefit, but you can shop at those places anyway. Doing so is a permanent effect that's recorded in the password system. Also, there are items in which their only effect is to restore you to full health. Yet these are also recorded in the password system for collection. Should I grab those as well?
Okay, done with some long-term concerns I'm thinking about, now for the short-term...
There are 5 weapons in reach before I drop myself in Corridor 1, but two of them are quite out of the way. I may want to grab a hold of three of them before jumping into Corridor 1. But after Corridor 1, if the death warps prove to be useful, I may want to head straight into Area 2 first, then clean out Area 1.
Basically, after I'm done with Area 2, I stroll into Area 1, collect all the power-ups in the area, demolish the boss in Corridor 11, then promptly die in the next room. This would warp us back to the Area 2 save room, much closer to Area 3.
... At least, that's what I'm thinking. Obviously, I need to test things. I also need to clean up my inactivity around the opening Corridor boss, as well.
Just watched the movie and I gotta say I like where it's going so far. I probably can't help much, but I'll try my best.
I wouldn't be so concerned about not killing everything on the screen. At the end of the game, there's so much on screen that I think even if you were trying to kill everything, it'd be impossible unless you just spammed Enemy Erasers, but that wouldn't be fun to watch. As long as you keep the movie funny, quirky and varied, it'll be fun to watch!
I think the death warp is probably a good idea, but just off the top of my head I don't know which areas exactly it'd be most useful. I'd imagine most, if not all of them, but it's been a few months since I've played and I don't quite have the map completely memorized, even though I've played this game for about 20 years now! Also, if you complete the corridor with 0 health, you'll still gain a little health from getting whatever item the corridor gives. IIRC, even weapon upgrades give you a slight bit of health. I'm sure you knew this already though.
Is it really necessary to show off all 3 levels of each sub-weapon? Consider that some levels of the weapon are very similar. For example, for Fireball, levels 2 and 3 are very similar, only level 3 is faster (and may be more powerful, but I'm not sure on that) but aesthetically, it wouldn't look too much different from level 2. Now levels 1 and 3 would be acceptable, since level 1 is a slow, small Fireball and 3 is a huge, fast one. Still, I'm a huge fan of this idea and I really think it'd contribute to it's entertainment.
It is my opinion that you should not visit any shops whose upgrades are obsolete. Only when the weapon the shop sells isn't maxed out and it's faster to get it from the shop than anywhere else. For people like us who know about the game, we know it'd be pointless and for those who don't they are left wondering why you went there in the first place.
Adding activity to the boss in the first stage would wrap up your WIP nicely. :) That's all about all I have to offer.
I wouldn't be so concerned about not killing everything on the screen. (...)
I'm not even worried to begin with. I'm just trying to get opinions here, and yours is definitely one of them. The later stages are definitely full of enemies alright, and trying to kill them all might end up forcing me to resort to a certain set of weapons only. This doesn't fit well with my goal of showing off weapons, correct?
shallow wrote:
I think the death warp is probably a good idea, but just off the top of my head I don't know which areas exactly it'd be most useful.
One such use I can think of is to pick up all items in Area 1, then beat the corridor that's quite deep in Area 1, then promptly kill myself off. Should save me from having to walk all the way back out of Area 1.
shallow wrote:
Also, if you complete the corridor with 0 health, you'll still gain a little health from getting whatever item the corridor gives. (...)
The weapons restore exactly 2 units of health. It's true that I'll never leave the corridor room at 0 health, but chipping myself down to 0 against its boss will still leave me with 2 health to lose instead of something uncomfortably higher.
shallow wrote:
Is it really necessary to show off all 3 levels of each sub-weapon? (...)
I think it is, but that's my opinion. The viewer may wonder why I'm showing all three levels of that grenade weapon, but why did this TASer skip over the level 2 fireball? What did the level 2 fireball look like?! Gah! I'm torching the place because I never got to see it! Rawraraarrr!
Okay, maybe not that extreme, but why skip over displaying weapon levels when it's just one pause transition away? Sure, they may seem similar, especially the saber weapons, but how will the viewer know that if I skip things? That's my reasoning why I want to show off all weapon levels.
shallow wrote:
It is my opinion that you should not visit any shops whose upgrades are obsolete. (...)
It appears your definition of 100% is The Guardian's inventory, and probably corridor completion as well. My definition is "does it change the password with no way of changing that aspect again?" Your argument has a pretty good basis, in that why am I wasting time with something that won't improve me in any form? I like the elegance that, if I record a password, then if I visit the area, it's already done or collected. I'll need to hear more thoughts from others.
shallow wrote:
(...) only level 3 is faster (and may be more powerful, but I'm not sure on that) (...)
The damage chart I worked up might be useful...
pw = Depends on ATTACK stat.
Orb : pw pw pw
Side Waves: pw pw pw
Quick Wave: 1 2 6
Shield : pw pw pw
Grenade : 16 32 48
Fireball : 16 24 32
Sprites : pw pw pw
Spin Shot : 4 7 10
Laser : 1 1 1
Saber : pw*2 pw*4 pw*8
Dbl Saber : pw*2 pw*4 pw*8
Basic shots: pw
Contact with enemy: pw
Contact with boss: 0
1 ATTACK g : pw= 1
2 ATTACK gg : pw= 2
3 ATTACK ggg : pw= 3
4 ATTACK gggg : pw= 5
0 SHIELD : pw=64
Each hit on a boss caps at 5 damage.
0 SHIELD will override the ATTACK stat.
0 SHIELD is reached only by password.
Lv2 and Lv3 sabers deal 0 damage with 0 SHIELD
The names here are rather arbitrary.
I'm inclined to agree with Shallow with regards to what "100%" is: if you don't actually improve your character or complete a level, then it doesn't matter.
Compare the Metroid series "100%" definition with the "100% map completion" definition that you see in some of the Castlevania games. I generally find the latter to be somewhat pointless, since it involves visiting places for no reason aside from to bump the percentage up.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
In that case, it will be important to know which items there are too much of:
5/3 Orb
4/3 Quick Wave
4/3 Spinny Shield
4/3 Grenade
4/3 Fireball
4/3 Sprites
9/? EE
6/5 Rate of Fire boosters
9/6 SHIELD
I suppose it's safe to assume that the shops and free item spots are optional, while the mini-bosses and corridors are all mandatory.
Alright, EE. There are four free ones scattered about completely unguarded. The first EE I pick up is all I need to "max out" the weapon -- Further EE pick-ups only add the number of shots I get with it, which can be found from enemies after I get my first EE. Should I bother getting these four free ones?
There are only two free SHIELD pick-ups. The remaining 7 are found from various corridors and mini-bosses, which is one more than enough to max out SHIELD. Shall I slay all the mini-bosses knowing I'll get a useless SHIELD power-up at the end?
And while we're on the subject of visually useless items, what about the Rate of Fire power-ups? Under TAS conditions, the first 4 do nothing (turbo button pressing), and it is only of benefit after I get my fifth. There's no update in the status screen, I will not make use of these power-ups until I get the fifth, and most viewers will never be able to tell any difference. Therefore, should I bother even revealing the existence of such an item? It's quite possible that I can avoid ever seeing its sprite, and all instances of these items are free or from shops.
These are the kinds of questions that come up in my head. I'm sure the answers will fall towards "no", "yes", and "yes", but I thought I should ask some tough questions that will help me know where 100% begins and ends.
I have other questions, but it's all largely a matter of figuring out which ones are the best ones to skip, which I'll try to answer on my own.
EDIT: I fixed the EE count. Yea, I'm bad at counting.
As far as the EEs go, I'd say only pick up one, then get others from enemies as you need them. Even if you don't know much about this game, I think viewers would see for themselves that there's no need to pick up any in rooms when you can just get as many as you want from enemies.
That extra shield miniboss is quite a conundrum. It makes one asks if a 100% run kills all minibosses or not? Peronally, I think all minibosses should be killed, but I wonder what you think, as well as everyone else interested in this run.
As far as the Rate of Fire items go, whether or not visually it makes a difference, wouldn't it still make the run faster to get all the upgrades? I know you don't have the last upgrade for long from the time you get it until the time the game ends, but it'd still make things faster right? Unless the time getting all the upgrades detracts from the power of the upgraded rate of fire. Bah, I can see why it's a tough decision. I'd say that it's ultimately how you feel. Again, I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.
Hopefully now you see why I am considering getting all items unconditionally, using my definition of 100% in that it changes the password -- I dodge tough questions like these. Unfortunately, we're currently basing 100% on what we can see of our inventory, so we're stuck with dealing with these questions.
In my list, I mention that there are 8 EEs (Scratch that, I miscounted. It's 9). I also mention that there are 4 free ones floating about. This implies that the other 5 are from minibosses or corridors. There's no avoiding picking up at least two of them from the corridors, and the remaining three would come from minibosses. So now the question is, should I bother the minibosses here? Whatever we pick for the SHIELD case should apply here as well.
My thoughts for the 7 SHIELDs are... Actually, I'm not even sure myself. I am leaning towards stomping them all anyway, but I wanted to word the question such that the conflict between "avoid wasteful pick-ups" and "kill everything" is made clear, in the sort of form that would make one think. It made you think, right?
As for the Rate of Fire pickups, how often one can shoot is generally limited by the boss's ability to delay your next shots. Your basic shots turn into this little explosion as it hits a boss, and that explosion takes a while to disappear. The pick-ups won't speed that up, so any time saved by grabbing five of them would likely be no more than a handful of frames. Compared to the many seconds it would take to get them in the first place. Time will almost undoubtedly be lost in trying to get them.
The real point is, someone who knows the game will spot this curious disregard for this power-up. I claim it's 100%, but I won't actually have any decent explanation why I didn't max out this technically unseen stat. Sure, I'd fool everyone who doesn't know the game, but those who do might feel somewhat cheated. Although it would waste time, I'm quite for picking up the Rate of Fire pick-ups.
Well, cleaned up the inactivity around that boss and beat it a few frames faster. Oh, and also did some stuff in Area 0.
My own gut feeling is to ignore all that is said here and grab everything unconditionally. Even the full heals that serves no purpose other than to fill the Guardian's health back to full and are marked off by the password system. While it can be argued that I do too much, I will have unambiguously fulfilled the 100% goal.
When I clearly collect "useless" items, the reason why I do it might be transmitted well enough, as it's in a shop or a conspicuous item box, and what completionist would leave those alone?
However, by doing so, I feel as though I ignore everything said here simply because I feel it's right and the rest of the world is wrong. The main thing I should be concerned about is what my audience thinks, not me. I'm still not 100% clear about the 100% goal, but I know what is ideal for me. I'm still working out what will be ideal for others.
Here's the impressions I've got so far:
Useless free items. Skip them? I say no, but the audience says yes.
Useless shops. Skip them? I say no, but the audience says yes.
The SHIELD conundrum. Skip a mini-boss? I say no. Audience is largely unclear, leaning no.
Rate of Fire power-ups. These will have no clue they even work. Skip them? I say no. Audience is unclear.
I can still TAS some more before the answers to these questions become important. I want to know, as a person unfamiliar, a competent player, or an actual speed-runner, what is the best option you'd want to see?
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I rewatched your wip and honestly, going through the menu takes a second so therefore, I wouldn't mind at all seeing all (yes, even level 2 weapons) weapons being used so go for it. Also, in the end, its obviously your run and you must decide what to collect. As for the mini-boss, I say do not skip it if you gives you a weapon or a shield.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
AngerFist is right -- it's your run, and you're free to ignore any suggestions we make. I have faith in your TASing abilities; whatever you make, I suspect I'll find it entertaining. :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Derakon is right. I've been thinking and more and more I'm starting to see your side of things. Unlike most other games, TGL doesn't have an indicator of 100%, whatever we may consider it to be. The closest thing to it would be the password. I know there are a few things that wouldn't change it, like collecting unnecessary upgrades or killing unnecessary minibosses. I think by doing it all, you'd be fulfilling 100% both considered by the game and the ambiguous 100% decided by us. :)
Oh and by the way, I watched the latest WIP and was pretty happy with it. It's not the fastest route, but the purpose of this run, it's probably the best. This way you collect 3 weapons early on to show off, as opposed to possibly one or even none if you were going the fastest route. Keep it up!
Actually, the weapons can speed up boss fights. Going straight to Corridor 1 first thing will certainly give a slower boss fight at the end, since you must wait for your 4 shots at a time to finish "exploding". And that orb up there isn't going to pick itself up later on!
At this stage of the game, the saber does 2 damage every 8 frames, while the other two weapons I pick up can only deal 1 damage in the same span of time. Then, of course, I can shoot the boss as well, which adds 1 damage for each shot, 3 shots at a time with certain sub-weapons readied. I haven't measured the time between these shots, but it's definitely longer than 8 frames.
Do note the mini-boss I destroyed. It has 16 HP. I shoot it 6 times with the basic gun (in two groups of 3 shots) and strike it 5 times with my saber. Without the saber, I would need 16 shots (in four groups of 4 shots), which will definitely take more time. The other bosses certainly have more than 16 HP to worry about.
... And there's apparently an 8-frame rule on when sub-weapons can damage bosses. The sub-weapon can also be in contact with some boss in the other 7 frames, with the effect that your basic gun and yourself can't even touch the boss while the sub-weapon is inside the boss. With the saber, you could simply activate it every 8 frames and leave it off the other 7 so you can shoot away efficiently. Other weapons have the problem of existing for chunks of frames at a time.
But I won't "demonstrate" only the saber weapon for every boss I come in contact with. Although it would likely be the fastest strategy for most bosses, I want to avoid repetitive use of the same weapon, never showing the beauty of what all the other weapons have to offer. I'll come up with ways of giving useful screen time for every weapon. Even the grenades and that spinny shield.
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I'm working slowly as ever, but progress does exist. But because I'm working as slow as I am, I had this fear that if ever I lose my progress, I'll never want to continue. It may be short bit of progress each time, but time has been spent in every frame.
http://infinitefactors.org/misc/Lee/Guardian%20Legend%20Online_BackUp.zip
As such, I'm keeping an online backup. I'm also providing access to this backup to anyone who wants to know where I'm currently at. Whenever I think about it, I will save a new backup to the same location, but don't expect frequent updates to this backup. Check every several days, if you want to see the new seconds I tacked on.
When I finally get Corridor 1 done, I'll be sure to announce that fact.
Great idea making a backup. I'm sure there have been plenty of runs stopped because of lost progress, etc. I also think that feedback will help motivation so as long as I am able, I'll watch and give feedback to every WIP you post to help keep you going.
On that note, I already like how you're using the weapons for entertainment. Keep it up. I can't wait to see this game I've played since childhood finally have a complete speedrun.
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 84
Location: Middle of Nowhere
A quick bump from me for progress, and to reveal some 'new' info.
Did you know that TGL has a "lost world" like the Metroids? It's fun to explore, since it's VERY volatile. Here's an article on it:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/587320/37475
According to it, there's a way we can glitch straight to Corridor 22.
Here's a password to get you into a "Corridor 0" room, and start your journey on the Lost Frontier with 0 Shields and all keys (taken from the article):
3stG 0gBG XYRF UMdE
RAtD OIHD nkQC IcJA
If there was a way we could go out of bounds in the game, we could try to manipulate a Corridor 22 to appear, thus skipping most of the game.
Ah, I remember reading all about it while still messing around with the password system in this game. The nice thing about that place is the fact it's so wildly random! It even breaks the "usual logic" of the game itself on occasion! The problem, however, is that there is no way to access this place without the right passwords.
... Then again, I never did explore the area much myself...
To the extent of my knowledge, there are four ways to enter any given coordinate:
- Appear by password (32 x 32 region)
- Use the passage panels (takes you to adjacent room)
- Walk to screen edge where there is no wall (different mechanics)
- Use a glitch weapon (We need in the glitch areas to get it)
A password-less run is going to have trouble getting off the map at all. Obviously, the expected playing area has no passage panels or screen edges that leads outside of the map, so forget those. Password is very out, as per definition of password-less run. And unless there's some way to corrupt memory without use of the wild glitch zones, we're not getting any glitch weapons, either.
If we are going to use passwords, it would be a good idea to generate one that is quick to input, like the one in my submission. There's likely numerous stats we don't care about, like whether there's an item to be found here or there or what our rate of fire is.
But I guess it depends on what our goal in particular is. Reaching the ending is an obvious end to our run, but there's different ways of getting there, each with their own merit.
As for my progress on my own run... Uh, er... I'll point you over there while I make a subtle attempt at running away.
I would love to see you collect every single item in the overworld just to show where everything (not in a shop) is and I agree with skipping ships that hold no useful items as that will indeed make viewers wonder why the hell you went there.
I would like to see how arty you can be at killing all mini bosses as well as all corridor bosses while still killing them in a reasonable time.
You are obviously familiar with the ability/(in-game) cheat to purchase more then one thing from a shop right?
Hi everyone!
I bet atleast some of you have heard of a game called "the guardian legend" for the nes.
If you happen to be a fan of this game, you will most likely know that there are no TAS of this game on here.
So i think it´s time to start doing a TAS of this awesome game.
I have been working on it for some time and have come up with some new things that most people didn´t know of.
I stumbled upon few tricks while playing around one day, and these tricks happen to save a lot of time through the entire game.
By following the steps of Tom "rdrunner" Votava´s speedrun back at speeddemosarchive, except leaving out some of the items and avoiding some bosse´s, i can tell you that a tool-assisted speedrun can be atleast 13 minutes faster.
Much of that comes from the tricks i stumbled upon.
I wish to start doing a TAS of it soon, but unfortunately, my computer keeps on crashing while recording using frame advance.
A new computer is a must before starting this projekt.
My question for you guys are, would someone experienced like to work together with me on this game?
Since this game are very time craving and hard to TAS, you must have played this game before and know how it works.
Let me know if you are interested, or if you happen to work on this game right now, my tricks will help you out a lot if you didn´t know about them.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I am interested anything that's related with The Guardian Legend! Feel free to show us these tricks, oh and someone is about to submit an any% run... Yup, my dream has finally come true!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I wish to ask what the tricks are. I'm aware of a few, such as the fact that special weapons can only hit bosses once every 8 frames but still eat up any chance for regular bullets to hit on every frame. So make sure you hit the boss once every 8 frames with the special weapon (saber is easy to do this with) while shooting with regular bullets as well. Or the fact the same bullet is capable of hitting more than one target at once.
I have some interest in co-running this game. At the moment, however, I am a bit busy with the ongoing contest. When it is over, I'll have a bit more time for this.
In any case, I am quite familiar with the game, even going so far to crack the password through observation. I'd like to think I know every last detail in this game by now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's still something I missed.
