A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
You can get a bug from the rock behind the Skulltula House in Kakariko. It's pretty much right on the way out of town after getting the pocket egg.
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Then why would you go down Zoras River anyway? If you don't have to wait for dawn the best bet is the owl. It's right there and takes you straight to the market. With it golden scale should be quickest. Remember this time you will get the shield and thus will be able to super slide.
So the golden scale route should look like this:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through hyrule field to lake hylia (I hope you can make it to the peahat before night)
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- go back to lake hylia through the warp
- plant bean
- fly with the owl to castle town
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
But I can see that silver scale would be back in. Still, golden scale is still an option and I think it would probably kick silver scales ass.
And again if it get's dawn with both options pretty close after obtaining, which it probably will, owl should always be faster than making your way manually.
Btw. wouldn't it be enough to get the bugs as an adault in Kakariko?
So the golden scale route should look like this:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through hyrule field to lake hylia (I hope you can make it to the peahat before night)
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- go back to lake hylia through the warp
- plant bean
- fly with the owl to castle town
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
Comparing this to the current WIP, I think it leaves you quite late for the earliest possible owl by a significant margin. Crossing Hyrule Field matches the current WIP, and adding all the errands and the fishing pond almost certainly makes you significantly late.
I think going into ZD and grabbing the Silver scale will make up for time spent unnecessarily crossing Hyrule Field.
I'm thinking:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through ZR to ZD
- Silver Scale
- Warp to Lake Hylia
- get ruto bottle
- plant bean(*2:)
- Warp to ZD
- get real bottle from king zora
1:
- Warp to Lake Hylia
- plant bean(*1:)
- fly with the owl to castle town
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
2:
- make way towards Castle manually.
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
I'm beginning to think that this spends enough game time. Since it is claimed that it takes a significant amount of time to go up Zora's River, perhaps this approximately matches the Hyrule Field crossing time in the current WIP. What is the approximate time difference for Silver Scale vs Gold Scale?
It seems that crossing Hyrule Field the extra time and the Gold Scale are associated events. It seems that the benefits of each cancel each other out, as both together advance game time to the point that you are quite late for the earliest owl. (This is merely wasted real time.)
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Then why would you go down Zoras River anyway? If you don't have to wait for dawn the best bet is the owl. It's right there and takes you straight to the market. With it golden scale should be quickest. Remember this time you will get the shield and thus will be able to super slide.
So the golden scale route should look like this:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through hyrule field to lake hylia (I hope you can make it to the peahat before night)
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- go back to lake hylia through the warp
- plant bean
- fly with the owl to castle town
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
But I can see that silver scale would be back in. Still, golden scale is still an option and I think it would probably kick silver scales ass.
And again if it get's dawn with both options pretty close after obtaining, which it probably will, owl should always be faster than making your way manually.
Btw. wouldn't it be enough to get the bugs as an adault in Kakariko?
With the Owl it takes 70 seconds from u step on the bridge in Lake Hylia until u exit Hyrule Fields to Marketplace. I am not convinced that this + the time it takes from King Zora to the bridge is less than the time it takes from King Zora down Zoras River and into the marketplace. Someone should test this... it should be easy.
If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
Thank you for confirming this.
Now that excludes the Owl from both the Silver and the Gold scale routes.
The cuccobottle-route will probably not get to the Owl too early (like it did in the WIP) because extra gametime is spent buying & planting the bean now.
This leaves us with the following 3 routes to be tested: (Only the Cuccobottle-route catches a bug)
Goldscale route: (g)
1g/1s/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2g/2s/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3g/3c. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4g. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
5g. Get rupies, plant bean and enter fishingpond
6g. Get Golden Scale, Leave fishingpond.
7g. Get Bottle then dive to Zoras Domain
8g/6s. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
9g/7s. Exit to Hyrule Fields
10g/8s. Enter Marketplace
total: 10 areas
Silverscale route: (s)
1s/1g/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2s/2g/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3s. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Zoras domain.
4s. Get Silverscale and dive to lake hylia.
5s. Get bottle and plant bean then dive back to Zoras domain.
6s/8g. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
7s/9g. Exit to Hyrule Fields
8s/10g. Enter Marketplace
total: 8 areas
Cuccobottle route: (c)
1c/1g/1s. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2c/2g/2s. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3c/3g. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Kakariko Village
5c. Get Cucco-bottle
6c. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
7c Plant Beans, get Rupies, get bug, grab owl
8c. Enter Marketplace
total: 8 areas
comments: 8g/6s. means that the goldscaleroute at point 8 is the same as silverscaleroute point 6
So the scale is only needed to get from ZD to LH and back? As it isn't needed from ZD to LH, wouldn't it make sense to try the other way without a scale before deciding the route?
If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
Well ok then if you say it takes too long, golden scale is out.
That would mean the silver scale route...
Well at least the diving game gives you 25r. Combined with the 40r from the bridge and a little bit extra that would be enough to buy the Hylia Shield.
@Synx
Afaik it has been proven a long time ago that the Kakariko bottle is slower than the Zora bottle, even with golden scale...
Ofcourse it's hard to know, since the people who want to TAS this game are pretty silent. But from what I've heard they tested it out and Ruto-bottle was faster.
Edit:
Hmm to get the rupees for the shield you could just play a second diving game. You are up there to get the silver scale anyway. The Zora actually throws red and pink rupees in the water. I got him up to 3 red, but maybe he throws even more. Maybe even 2 pink and one red are possible. Now manipulate them that they land close together and you have all the money you could want.
Edit2: He actually throws orange rupees if you are lucky (or manipulate the luck). :D So that ofcourse maxes out your wallet and will be more than enough to buy the shield. ^^
Maybe you can even get it thrown close to the warp to Lake Hylia, so that you can do both in one dive.
Edit3: Ofcourse you also get about 22r from swimming down ZR, you still have 25r from the first diving game and you could get 40r from the castle town draw bridge. I honestly don't know what would be faster... Bridge or a second diving game...
If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
Well ok then if you say it takes too long, golden scale is out.
That would mean the silver scale route...
Well at least the diving game gives you 25r. Combined with the 40r from the bridge and a little bit extra that would be enough to buy the Hylia Shield.
@Synx
Afaik it has been proven a long time ago that the Kakariko bottle is slower than the Zora bottle, even with golden scale...
Ofcourse it's hard to know, since the people who want to TAS this game are pretty silent. But from what I've heard they tested it out and Ruto-bottle was faster.
Edit:
Hmm to get the rupees for the shield you could just play a second diving game. You are up there to get the silver scale anyway. The Zora actually throws red and pink rupees in the water. I got him up to 3 red, but maybe he throws even more. Maybe even 2 pink and one red are possible. Now manipulate them that they land close together and you have all the money you could want.
Edit2: He actually throws orange rupees if you are lucky (or manipulate the luck). :D So that ofcourse maxes out your wallet and will be more than enough to buy the shield. ^^
Maybe you can even get it thrown close to the warp to Lake Hylia, so that you can do both in one dive.
Edit3: Ofcourse you also get about 22r from swimming down ZR, you still have 25r from the first diving game and you could get 40r from the castle town draw bridge. I honestly don't know what would be faster... Bridge or a second diving game...
You keep saying that the kakarikobottle is "proven" to be slower than the others.
This is simply not the case. Remember that you won't be too early for the owl anymore and have to wait at Lake Hylia for 20 secs because that time is spent buying and planting the beans now.
Which is why I still think it's the fastest.
I am not even convinced that the silverscale is faster than the goldscale route.
The trip up Zoras river is long ^_^
it took bloob 40 seconds to get from the magic bean guy to ZD
substract 5 seconds of it, because I know, how to save a good amount of time of it
so it takes 35 seconds to get up zora's river
for comparison:
it takes 55 seconds to cross hyrule field. you have to add some time to this, because we wouldn't be able to peahat superslide, because it'd be night already ;)
so it 35 seconds against 58 seconds!
so you can't say "it's a long trip", because it is no long trip :P
It should be even more than 58 seconds because you are already at the bean guy and it takes some time leaving ZR anyway (unless you've already factored that in).
It should be even more than 58 seconds because you are already at the bean guy and it takes some time leaving ZR anyway (unless you've already factored that in).
you'd probably go to the bean guy at first and then to kakariko, because you can do the water ESS, when you come from kakariko
so if you consider, how long it takes from the bean guy to kakariko, you'll actually notice, that only the gold or silver scale route can be quicker and that coccu bottle is pretty much out of the race ;)
In the current WIP:
-Gain control in Hyrule Field first time to Kakariko: 29 seconds
-From beginning of transition into Kakariko to completion of transition out of Kakariko: 159 seconds
-Kakariko to Lake Hylia: 55 seconds (Night time occurs 37 seconds into this.)
-Enter Lake Hylia until talking to owl at dawn: 65 seconds.
This would suggest that there are roughly 149 seconds to get to the next daytime. These timings are accurate within a second or so.
============
-Consider that you can probably get to Zora's River in about 20 seconds from Kokiri.
-Consider it takes 15 seconds from entering Zora's River to get to the magic bean guy.
-Consider it takes 35 seconds to get to Zora's Domain from there.
Get the Silver Scale. The diving game takes about 20 seconds, and it takes about 25 more seconds for dialogs and traversing back up to him.
70 seconds of game time have elapsed and we are in Zora's Domain.
-Estimate 10 seconds of game time to grab the bottle in Lake Hylia. In Lake Hylia it takes about 15 seconds to get from the warp to the magic bean spot, and probably 10 seconds to get back.
-Estimate about 85 seconds (*real time) for talking to the king and getting back to the warp. (This conversation/moving takes almost 60 seconds.)
105 game seconds have elapsed and we are in Zora's Domain.
-Exit Zora's Domain to Zora's River, estimate about 25 seconds to go down Zora's River. (May be a high estimate.)
-Estimate 20 seconds to get to the castle from Zora's River with some sort of water/skeleton superslide.
Exactly 150 game time seconds have passed with these estimates, the bridge should just be coming down. Any overestimating I have done can be accounted for by collecting rupees.
I now believe this is the fastest route, and it seems significantly faster than the Cucco Bottle route.
We save 55 seconds of owl flight time, 159 seconds from Kakariko Village time, and most of 20 seconds of wasted time waiting for the owl. This itself is 234 seconds.
This is compared to 45 seconds of getting the silver scale, 85 seconds of talking to the king, and 15 or so seconds of getting the Ruto Bottle. That adds up to 150 seconds. This doesn't account for some various ~10 second travel times, but most of that can be accounted for by not traversing Hyrule Field again.
========
If getting out of the warp, getting the gold scale, getting the bottle, and getting back in the warp is faster than getting the silver scale, it can be considered. I have a feeling that it is over 60 seconds though. Especially considering swimming. It also adds an extra path to a warp which probably adds about 10 seconds. I'd estimate it takes the silver scale route about 65 seconds of real time to make it back to the castle from Zora's Domain. This is directly weighed against the 55 second owl flight time. The gold scale would have to be equally as fast including an extra trip warping from Zora's Domain and pass enough game time to be on time for the owl in order to be better than the silver scale. Also, considering a route that traverses from Zora's River to Lake Hylia through Hyrule Field, it would take roughly the same amount of time, if not more to get to the fishing pond. Going through Zora's Domain would be almost equally fast if not faster. The silver scale route also allows us to collect rupees on our way. This paragraph was a bit of a ramble, but I think it presents considerations that reject the gold scale as a viable route.
=======
I hope this was a useful analysis, if anyone has better estimates feel free to correct mine.
Ok, The cucco-bottle is not the fastest.
Question:
From the magic bean guy, is it faster to get to the fishing pond up Zoras river, through the warp, or through Hyrule Fields?
If Zoras River is the fastest, then that would favour the Silverscale route
Zoras river is way faster. Didn't you read Grunzes post?
I didn't say this. compared to going through hyrule field, it is indeed quicker to go through the river, but if you want to go the pond, it is probably quicker to go through hyrule field, because of those reasons:
- going through hyrule field skips the ZD intro cutscene
- going from ZD to lake hylia without the scale requieres this trick, that takes about 20-25 seconds to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_EouEjuj6E
- swimming from the lake hylia warp to the pond is probably a bit quicker than going from the entrance of lake hylia to the pond, but that shouldn't make going up the river quicker
this is again one of those things, that have to be timed, because it is really close
Yeah you fail too :p
Gruz is conservative as always. Even to the fishing pond Zoras river should be slightly faster.
And silver scale is way faster. Can we just move on now?
One question.
Why all of the saving of rupees when there is a possible route through kakariko, which has a cemetary, which has a free AL shield inside?
