This is a split from #2459: veup's DS Tetris DS in 01:37.53. It was made to discuss the site's policy towards submitting movies by a different author without their express approval.
Original post content goes here.
Ok guys, before you all gang up on the nasty villain FractalFusion, let's remember that he did not publish this TAS, but only submitted, allowing more people to learn about it and watch it. Think of it as if he had linked to it publicly. We can still reject, postpone or do nothing at all to this submission until we get a response from veup.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Ok guys, before you all gang up on the nasty villain FractalFusion, let's remember that he did not publish this TAS, but only submitted, allowing more people to learn about it and watch it. Think of it as if he had linked to it publicly. We can still reject, postpone or do nothing at all to this submission until we get a response from veup.
The better venue for that would be to link it from the DS games thread. I think it is very bad precedent to set that the author's permission is not required to submit a file to this site.
Edit: Upon further review of the situation (reading the thread for the rejected submission), it semes clear that Veup would want it submitted. However, I still think he should have been contacted first, and given a chance to submit it for himself.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
The better venue for that would be to link it from the DS games thread. I think it is very bad precedent to set that the author's permission is not required to submit a file to this site.
The thing is, it will make the Tetris DS thread a battlefield instead of actually discussing about the game. Then again, we already have 7 posts here, and no one actually took the time to see the movie...
.
I don't think if would be good to publish without the author's authorization as well, but I can think reasons to ask for someone to publish your movie.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
I don't think if would be good to publish without the author's authorization as well, but I can think reasons to ask for someone to publish your movie.
I'm not even talking about publishing it. I think actually this submission should be deleted because it wasn't authorized when it was made. And I don't just mean cancelled...
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I felt that veup was sitting on the fence with this TAS (with no evidence of an improved version), and is a lurker enough not to read my PM for 4 days and not to read the post in my submission (or to read it but ignore it).
If I am wrong, and veup is planning on making an improvement, I will cancel this submission.
That said, people do have the right to, say, take my unsubmitted runs and submit them (under my name). Or even resubmit a run I cancelled, just because they didn't agree on why I cancelled it. Whether a TAS is accepted or not shouldn't be about personal issues. At least, hopefully not. And I don't think I'm the first one to do something like this.
By the way, veup did eventually see my PM, but that was probably after I submitted this. And no response either.
I felt that veup was sitting on the fence with this TAS (with no evidence of an improved version)
Bottom line is, it's his decision to make, not yours.
FractalFusion wrote:
If I am wrong, and veup is planning on making an improvement, I will cancel this submission.
And why should he have to publically announce his plans to expand or improve on his work to prevent other people from taking the unfinished version and doing whatever the hell they feel like with it?
FractalFusion wrote:
That said, people do have the right to, say, take my unsubmitted runs and submit them (under my name). Or even resubmit a run I cancelled, just because they didn't agree on why I cancelled it.
They do only because you have expressly authorized such activities with this post. Your TAS run is your work, and you own it.
FractalFusion wrote:
Whether a TAS is accepted or not shouldn't be about personal issues. At least, hopefully not. And I don't think I'm the first one to do something like this.
It is true that TAS acceptance should not depend on personal issues, but submissions should only be valid if they are made by the author. If he does not want it submitted, it should not be here period. Not even as a gruefood.
And you are very much the first person to have done this. Unless you are talking about those joint authorship cases where somebody contributed their own work to a previously published TAS and then submitted under both names.
As opposed to taking work that is entirely someone else's and they may not even want submitted.
By the way, veup did eventually see my PM, but that was probably after I submitted this. And no response either.
Maybe that's because he speaks fucking Japanese and translating to and from English is difficult and time consuming work? You really have no fucking sense, do you? Jesus Christ, where do you get this sense of entitlement?
Let me put this simply
IT IS NOT YOUR WORK, IT IS NOT YOUR DECISION.
This submission and thread should be deleted. That is DELETED, not cancelled, the HTML file should be destroyed, the zip deleted, and both the submission and its accompanying thread removed from the database. Making the submission requires rights to the work that FractalFusion does not possess.
Additionally, the submission system should be overhauled to remove the ability to submit as an entirely different person.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Why are you screaming upthorn?
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Angerfist: Because what FractalFusion did is detestable at best, possibly even criminal, and it pisses me off that he acts like he doesn't even understand why.
If the work in question were a book instead of an input file, and FractalFusion had taken the manuscript and sent it to a publisher under the original author's name, that would very clearly be a crime. Theft, fraud, impersonation, whatever. The publisher wouldn't be able to accept it--regardless of its merits--and the person who did it would be liable for all sorts of criminal and civil suits.
Granted that nobody ever made money off of TASing, but it's the exact same abuse of somebody else's work, so I don't see why we should treat it any differently from the book publisher in such a case.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I absolutely loathe this line in the submission text. People have the full right to disagree on something, and this line gives these people a label that they are are taking things too serious at the moment they post. I think it's very cheap.
I absolutely loathe this line in the submission text. People have the full right to disagree on something, and this line gives these people a label that they are are taking things too serious at the moment they post. I think it's very cheap.
Dude, check Upthorn's attitude, he's almost calling the cops because someone submitted a TAS without the author's consenting. He's even naming "property rights" for a TAS. The only one which have any "rights" in this movie is the Nintendo company.
This is not about fans and their movies anymore.
FractalFusion wrote:
TAS is serious business.
Oh, by the way, the movie looks good. Yes vote.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
FractalFusion wrote:
And I don't think I'm the first one to do something like this.
You have to go pretty far back, but you can find an a precedent for this. It is called the creation of this site. Bisqwit found morimoto's TAS movies and decided to make a site that hosts them. I don't see anywhere in the history where it mentions Bisqwit contacting morimoto and asking permission.
(This post is not an attempt to take a side one way or the other, I just felt the need to supply information)
I believe the same happened later to Doom TASes as well.
Anyway, I would like to expressly request the discussion to be civil, and pertain to the movie in question and not the circumstances of its submission. If you're willing to continue bashing each other, do it in PM, or I will lock this thread for 24 hours after each such post. Hear me?
mmbossman wrote:
Setting this to "Needs more information". If the author of this input file does not want his works submitted here without his consent, or does not explicitly state his desires regarding this submission within a reasonable amount of time, this submission will either be rejected and locked or outright deleted (I have not decided yet). However, if the author makes it known that he is ok with this movie being submitted under his name, this submission will be judged as usual. Please restrict the discussion of this movie to whether or not it should be published based on entertainment and technical prowess, and not authorship.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
moozooh wrote:
Anyway, I would like to expressly request the discussion to be civil, and pertain to the movie in question and not the circumstances of its submission. If you're willing to continue bashing each other, do it in PM, or I will lock this thread for 24 hours after each such post. Hear me?
Upthorn is shouting, but nobody is bashing each other. I'd say it is quite civil (though heated). In any event, I don't agree with this decision. The movie is entertaining and publishable and all that but the circumstance surrounding its submission is far more interesting & relevant to me. I hope to see it played out.
It's interesting, and relevant to the site's policies, but completely misplaced. It can and should be continued elsewhere, in a thread of its own, and when everyone willing to continue it has chilled out. You suggested to see how it will play out — this is exactly what I'm suggesting too. The discussion can as well happen after we have the results.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
The only one which have any "rights" in this movie is the Nintendo company.
This is like saying that the only one who has any rights to a novel is the paper mill whose sheets were used.
Also I'm not saying fractalfusion should be banned, sued, jailed or anything. What I am saying is that without the express consent of the work's author, the site does not have the right to distribute it.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
As far as I'm concerned, the right decision was currently made in the judging. If veup wants this to be a legit submission, then we'll treat it as such, and otherwise veup can decide whether the submission gets killed or not. Let's just not do similar behavior in the future... maybe the form for submitting a movie should be modified slightly?
(Oh, by the way, there is another instance I can think of with a submission of someone else's work. With Ferret Warlord's GI Joe movie, before Xipo obsoleted it, I believe Ferret Warlord's brother, Shadow Bryn, submitted that movie. However, he also had explicit permission to do so, if I recall correctly.)
As for the movie's merits, this is very clean. This run only creates tetrises using the bottom 4 lines, which I'm not sure if I prefer, but it clearly shows great planning. The all-clears were nice, and the speed of the movie is still blazing fast. I'm going to vote Yes, and we'll see how things play out.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
What I am saying is that without the express consent of the work's author, the site does not have the right to distribute it.
Doesnt the guy putted a link to his movie file in FF's gruefood topic ?
Like, if he didnt wanted this to be shared, why even putting a link on a public forum then ? its not just youtube he gave the input file...
Granted it doesnt mean he want it submited, alltought, theres no doubt, this is public material and if he didnt wanted it to be "distributed", then dont give a link in the first place .... your overreacting on this i think
As for the movie itself, seemed wicked :p
Im not a hyper fan of tetris, but it clearly looked faster than FF's run, ill toss in yes
There's a big difference between putting your material online for people to view, and giving blanket permission for other people to distribute your work. What if veup hates TASVideos and doesn't want to be seen as endorsing the site? Stranger things have happened.
Showing something to the public is not the same thing as putting it into the public domain.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Showing something to the public is not the same thing as putting it into the public domain.
Thats playing with words, the reality is there is a input file, he gave the link to it, again it doesnt mean he want it submited, but tought, theres no privacy whatsoever or dont give the link on a public forum at first then
Notice again he didnt gave a link to youtube, nor FF stole him a input file, he gave the link to the input file... on a public forum... to me its like do whatever you want with it...
Now it would get upsetting if FF did stole the input, or dont make credits goes where they belong, this is not the case, so ill not trow a stone at FF, if the guy dont want it to be "published", i guess its not going to be hard to remove it from the site, as for the privacy of his input file its gone at the moment he posted it on a public forum
If that guy doesnt like the site at first like your saying, and hate us, why even posting link to it here then? Like sorry im retard i posted a link but i realy dont want it here? cant he just edit his post and remove then ? No he didnt, so lets stop exagerate fantasm on people whillings, we are not mind reader, and hes not retard to the point to give a link he want to keep private on a forum he hate... all that is non sences
arukAdo is essentially stating that all information posted on the Internet is public domain.
No, that's not how this works.
Back on topic: Decent movie. If veup affirmatively states he considers it submitted, go for it. Otherwise, no.
(Edit: It has been brought to my attention that this was rather harsh for a first post; no offense was intended.)
I'm sorry, but I don't see a movie input file as a creative work, but as a solution. True, it does take creativity, but in no way can you really "own" a set of key strokes that could be generated again through someone trying to achieve the same goal. For example (to take the extreme), King's Bounty. Theoretically it is as fast as possible since all "reasonable" shorter inputs were tested. Someone could independently write a program to generate the exact same input to beat the game as fast as possible.
True, for most movies there are some "optional" inputs that do not effect the desired goal. But still, I don't think anyone can really claim "ownership" on them.
I do think that it is kind of rude to submit someone else's work, but FF seems to have had somewhat of a reason.
Well, if we never hear from veup, I can always experiment with changing the last couple of pieces and submit it as my own work :)
Er, oh yeah, I guess this is kind of off topic, sorry, but thought I'd throw in my 1 cent, instead of just sticking with snide one-liners.
The movie is a good one! I hope it is published!
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
alden wrote:
in no way can you really "own" a set of key strokes that could be generated again through someone trying to achieve the same goal... Someone could independently write a program to generate the exact same input to beat the game as fast as possible.
Counterpoint: The same could be said for many of the best works of literature in the English language... they could be theoretically generated by someone else trying to achieve the same goal, or by a program brute-forcing prose, however both would generally be considered plagiarism.
