Post by RT-55J

Posted: 11/12/2009 11:35 PM

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Kriole

Experienced player (870)

Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden

A new strategy for the Big Metroid has been found, skipping the spark and using a new method by running inside the Metroid without getting caught was abused. This new method has yet to be optimized fully, but it has saved 77 frames thus far. Pie Requires the Wave Beam and the Speedbooster, needs to be tested if it is possible without the Wave Beam. And if that works, without the Speedbooster.

Posted: 11/14/2009 3:06 PM

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NameSpoofer

Former player

Joined: 6/3/2008
Posts: 136
Location: US

Right so, upon the completion of my 14% run, me and Cpadolf have decided to rape a new 100% realtime run. The question arises again: Should we use the x-ray? How would you guys feel about it. O.o The 3 major gains from the x-ray would include the gravity statue skip, MB skip, and big metriod skip, along with anything else we may find along the way.

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect. Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once My SM-RBO Current Project(s): 1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!

Posted: 11/14/2009 6:19 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

In my opinion, X-Ray skipping is pretty tedious stuff. Of course, what you listed for skipping is also pretty tedious. Tough choice...

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 11/14/2009 6:21 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Please dont use it and also, I look a lot forward to a new 100% realtime run!

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 11/14/2009 8:24 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (89)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States

AngerFist wrote:

Please dont use it and also, I look a lot forward to a new 100% realtime run!

Could not agree more. The xray scope destroys the beauty of the 100% run... The beauty is seeing samus plow through all the rooms with great accuracy, using all available items. IMO It is the primary reason the 100% run is the highest rated entertainment run on the entire site. Another problem with xray is the plethora of new route possibilities. I consider myself a bit of an expert on making SM routes, but with xray glitching... everything we know goes out the window. First one would have to map out every room where xray glitching is beneficial, then consider the rooms that can be broken into early, then you would need to recalculate an entire new route based on it. I told spoofer already, that I would vote NO on any submission that attempts to obsolete CP's run using Xray glitching.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 11/14/2009 8:38 PM

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NameSpoofer

Former player

Joined: 6/3/2008
Posts: 136
Location: US

hero of the day wrote:

The beauty is seeing samus plow through all the rooms with great accuracy, using all available items.

We WOULD be using all items if we x-rayed, otherwise, it will just be that triangle looking thing at the top of the screen, never put to use. :)

hero of the day wrote:

I consider myself a bit of an expert on making SM routes.

OMFGWTFBBQ! THAT'S COCKY AND YOU HAVE THE ATTITUDE OF SATURN! GG. Anyways, I think we have our answer. :S It won't be used.

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect. Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once My SM-RBO Current Project(s): 1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!

Posted: 11/14/2009 8:51 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1444)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

namespoofer wrote:

Anyways, I think we have our answer. :S It won't be used.

Let's give it another day or so for other people to give their view on it, if there are any more. But yeah, I was inclined to banning X-ray abuse from the beginning. I view it as a good speed/entertainment trade-off, which is nothing unheard of.

hero of the day wrote:

I consider myself a bit of an expert on making SM routes

You're the god damned master :P

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 11/15/2009 1:07 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Another vote for no X-ray, though an optimized demonstration of all beneficial points, preferably before the actual progress has been made, would make the decision more informed.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 11/15/2009 4:38 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1444)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Well the only places we know it can be used is to skip Mother Brain, the baby metroid and the gravity statue walk. Here is an old test I did of the MB skip, cut out from JXQ's run (so it doesn't have have Green Brinstar part). It's not very optimized, but should only be a second or two away from the real thing. It saves about 2:50 ingame (that would probably be more like 2:40 if using the GB savestation), and I imagine around 2 minutes or a little more in realtime. This is quite a lot, but it is really the main reason I don't want to use X-ray. I think actually having the final boss being defeated in a 100% run would be a good thing, and saving/resetting twice, plus killing yourself in GB while having over a full E-tank is just ugly. The baby metroid skip would be almost exactly like the one in my any% run, and should save around 10 seconds. The gravity statue skip can be seen here. The raw gain should be a bit over 20 seconds, but the actual gain would be a lot less, due to grabbing X-ray much earlier, having to do extensive ammo refilling and causing yourself 4-5 E-tanks worth of damage.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 11/15/2009 8:00 PM

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Saturn

Player (206)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

I highly recommend to not use the X-Ray glitch. A 100% is there to show everything the game has to offer, and skipping major and one of the most entertaining parts of it does just the opposite. Good luck on the new run, guys.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 11/17/2009 1:27 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1444)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

In Super Metroid Snes9x 1.51 was shown to be less accurate than 1.43, right? I'm asking because I wonder if we should stick to 1.43 even though there has been a push to increase use of 1.51.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 11/17/2009 1:39 PM

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Saturn

Player (206)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

I recommend to stick to 1.43+. Not only do you avoid a risk to experience annoying desyncs, it's emulation is also more accurate to the real SNES during door transitions, as JXQ proved a couple of years ago. That, and the direct realtime comparison to the previous run would also be possible, which is a good thing.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 11/17/2009 6:55 PM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

I've always argued that a 100% shouldn't use any game-breaking glitches. But I don't think the X-ray is the problem, neither is the X-ray standup glitch. And I'd argue that the three skips presented here are different kind of glitches altogether. To skip the Baby Metroid and Mother Brain. Samus has to leave the boundaries of the level. Those tricks rely on getting Samus into areas where no level data is defined. Instead, random memory areas will be treated as level data, hoping that some of those memory values look like a door. With the MB skip, you're even going going out of your way to manipulate those memory locations to your liking. So why is that bad? Because it doesn't make sense from Samus' point of view. Granted, going through walls doesn't make much sense either, but at least that's a consistent feature of the game world. Going into random memory locations is not - those memory locations change when samus enters the room through a different door, goes through a different set of door transitions, saves&reloads or possibly even while she's just shooting stuff. From her point of view, that's essentially random. Why is she saving before Mother Brain? To pray to an unknown god to spawn a door in the ceiling? Suddenly it isn't samus who's doing the collecting any more, it's some outside influence. It's akin to breaking the fourth wall. It's similar in spirit to what Radix called "mysterious teleportation". Hence: traveling outside of level data is bad, hmkay? On the other hand, X-ray can be used to simply travel through solid blocks. I think that's fine, because traveling through solid blocks has a long history in SM, even in the 100% runs. Examples: entering the spring ball room backwards, reaching botwoon w/o SB, exiting the charge beam room, getting missile&super missile in the large maridia room, ascending the LN elevators, ... even the old way of getting the spore spawn missile embedded samus into a solid block. Should we disallow traveling through solid blocks based on the means to do so? I don't think that's a good idea. Crouch-jumping, grappling hook, X-ray - anything's fine with me, as long as samus stays within the level. So, long story short, I'd allow using the X-ray, but not traveling outside of the level data. Why did I even bother writing that? Because I think entering the WS through the exit just looks too cool to pass. ;) It's just a minor detour, doesn't skip anything important, doesn't break the game, only uses a door that has been programmed into the game, so it's fine with me. counter-arguments?

m00

Posted: 11/17/2009 10:48 PM

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Kriole

Experienced player (870)

Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden

I vote yes for X-ray. All 100% runs thus far have already shown how the game is supposed to look, why bother doing it again. Following this logic, skipping the Spore Spawn and Torizo should not be allowed, and rescuing the animals would be mandatory. Tourian has, due to it's endless amount of waiting scenes, always been a huge turbobutton-fest. None of it is actually fun watching. X-ray would most likely change this bad trend. Let's be rational. X-ray has only 3 _very_ useful applications, and none of them are that terribly long, compared to the Statue Room skip anyways.

Posted: 11/17/2009 11:20 PM

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P.JBoy

Any

Editor

Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!

Seconded.

Posted: 11/18/2009 12:15 PM

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amaurea

Former player

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 424
Location: UK

It is a bit delayed, but here is the low% comparision video, comparing NameSpoofer's (normal Samus), Saturn's (red Samus) and Terimakasih's (blue Samus) low% runs, as well as the current any% run (green Samus) as an extra bonus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIf1onFWe2I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6BNYt6jasI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxkqRbZ4YII As usual, I only display in-game frames, and use these to sync the runs. And also resync them at room boundaries so that room strategies can be compared. Unfortunately, the oldest run is left behind almost immediately in each room, so it is not simple to compare strategies with it. This is mostly due to the lack of arm-pumping there. The numbers at the top of the screen show how many frames behind NameSpoofer the other runs are. Techincally, it show how many frames needed to be delayed to make them enter the room at the same frame. When paths diverge, this number makes less sense. In general, NameSpoofer is barely faster than the any% run (Taco & Kriole) in most rooms until the route difference starts to become an important factor. He is noticably faster than the low% ice (Saturn) in almost all rooms, with the major exception of bosses and metroids. The same applies vs. the old run (Terimakasih), but to a much larger degree. I think this comparision would have been useful in the run's thread in the workbench, but since it already is in gruefood, I'll just post it here.

Posted: 11/18/2009 5:58 PM

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Kuwaga

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248

Wow, it really is the single most optimized run so far it seems. Mad props to NameSpoofer. ;) And the only in game frame versions are so much more watchable than the normal encodes for SMetroid runs. Thx for the encode. ^^

Posted: 11/18/2009 6:17 PM

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NameSpoofer

Former player

Joined: 6/3/2008
Posts: 136
Location: US

amaurea wrote:

In general, NameSpoofer is barely faster than the any% run (Taco & Kriole) in most rooms until the route difference starts to become an important factor.

It should be noted that the powerrangers aimed for realtime, and it is almost always faster for realtime to delay ingame/use slower room strats for door scrolling optimization. One example is the green brinstar early super missile room door entry. I gain more speed and jump right when I hit the transition. They jump high with lower speed to remove door scrolling, but land later (ingame) in the next room. Just thought I should point that out >.< Oh and, also fucking video!

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect. Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once My SM-RBO Current Project(s): 1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!

Posted: 11/20/2009 12:31 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

I'd like to see a 100% run using X-Ray just to know the gains of it, but if somebody submit one it will certainly obsolete the genuine 100% run and I wouldn't like that. Seriously, the glitched any% run is a great video but there's a break of entertaining of 15.000 frames (how many seconds?) that's when Cpadolf is climbing on the statue room. Although the other areas don't need much time to climb i'd still like to see a genuine 100% run to obsolete the older, not a glitched. Also it will create a lot of confusion if a glitched obsolete the 100% run, people will say that if that happened so the Glitched any% have to obsolete the genuine any% too... and all that will remain is a glitched any% and a Glitched 100%, but if there's possibilitie to have all the runs (any%, glitched any%, 100%, glitched 100%) so go ahead on the glitched.

Posted: 11/20/2009 1:01 PM

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Kriole

Experienced player (870)

Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden

Eye Of The Beholder wrote:

Also it will create a lot of confusion if a glitched obsolete the 100% run, people will say that if that happened so the Glitched any% have to obsolete the genuine any% too.

Hopefully not. There is a difference between a 'Glitched' 100%, and the NBMB; the NBMB falls apart completely without the Mother Brain skip, while the Mother Brain skip in the 100% is only there to save time. Also keep in mind that a 100% needs to fight all statue-bosses, making the Statue Room skip pretty useless.

Posted: 11/20/2009 2:01 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1444)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Kriole wrote:

There is a difference between a 'Glitched' 100%, and the NBMB; the NBMB falls apart completely without the Mother Brain skip, while the Mother Brain skip in the 100% is only there to save time.

Not really. The MB skip in the glitched run is actually only there to save time, as the run does not aim to be a no boss run, the fact that it is a no boss run is purely coincidental (same goes for its low% achievement). There is still a big difference anyway though. In the case of any% the glitching makes the route completely different, the final time is almost cut if half and overall the runs are barely comparable at all. In the case with the 100% run for all we know the route will be almost exactly the same, the final time would change by no more than a few minutes and the two runs would look pretty much the same all the way through. In the former case two separate runs is clearly justified. In the latter case, not so much. I would prefer making a 100% run without using X-ray not because I don't want to see a run using X-ray (I would), but because I like the alternative better and I don't think having both is justified. It's about entertainment value, and (to me at least) that's what the 100% run is all about. Not using X-ray is a speed/entertainment trade off to a run that is, essentially, already a ~45 minute speed/entertainment trade off to the glitched run. And the non-glitched any% is too (though by ~17-18 minutes). Not everyone finds it more entertaining to go without the X-ray, of course, but there seems to be an equal if not a greater amount of people (who care) who would prefer it without X-raying, as well as both I and Spoofer. So at this point the decision is clear to me at least. /rambling

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 11/20/2009 3:05 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (89)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States

Well with the advent of a new 100% run, I'll start looking around for any possible new timesavers. Here is one for the dachora room. Looks to save 5-10 frames over the mockball method... http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1524501480/dachora.smv

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 11/20/2009 4:12 PM

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BigBoct

He/Him

Editor, Former player

Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH

I think Tub has it right...using the X-Ray Scope for glitching through blocks (i.e. for the Gravity Chozo skip) is fine, but out-of-room travel (i.e. skipping Mother Brain) is not.

Previous Name: boct1584

Posted: 11/20/2009 4:15 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Like I explained to Spoofer some time ago, personally I would vote for whatever doesn't mess up the graphics, which I believe coincides with "glitching through blocks is fine, glitching out-of-room isn't", but have fun passing that off as a non-arbitrary restriction. In this context I'd rather do without it.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

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