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Post subject: Fire Emblem: Fuuin no Tsurugi
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
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With a lot of much appreciated help from Nitrodon, I'm starting to get into Fire Emblem TASing. I thought I'd start a topic to generate ideas and help to plan for a full TAS of Fire Emblem 6, known as either Sealed Sword or Sword of Seals depending on how you translate it. This is the one GBA title that was never released outside of Japan, so it isn't as well known as Fire Emblem or FE: Sacred Stones. Nevertheless, it is still one of my fave FE games, and since SS and FE7 have both been done, I thought I'd start afresh with a different title in the series. I'm likely to have less reliance on the 'jeigan' character Marcus, since his starting stats are nowhere near exceptional unlike his younger self in FE7, and the social knights can quickly level and be better than Marcus very quickly, in terms of raw combat stats. Marcus will still be useful for his extra movement, though, and his nice defensive stats might also prove to be helpful. The aims of the run I plan to do will be lowest turn count, and I plan to avoid doing any of the gaidens (side-quests) and just complete the bad ending on Normal mode. I should have enough Wyrmslayer uses to deal with the mamkutes that appear, and as for Zephiel I can raise Fa for a few levels. So, I shouldn't need to pick up any of the legendary weapons. I believe the SDA run gets two of them (Malte and Durandal), but I assume that they are also got for the extra weapon might, which can be compensated for by manipulating crits. Since all the chapters in this game are seize chapters, I'll be having to do a lot of transporting with Roy to get him to the throne. This likely means I'll not be levelling Roy much at all, so other units will needed for the boss kills, probably requiring transport too. Speaking of transport, I'll get Thany the first pegasus knight as early as Chapter 2, and I'll likely stick with her until I get Miledy, unless I have time to level Thany at all. Miledy can also be promoted straight away so that gives me extra movement, and the boots come a couple of chapters later in the desert. Speaking of the desert, I can get Warp staff too, although I have to wait until I can recruit Niime to actually use it (since staff levelling is too time-consuming). As for other units, I plan to raise Alan since he can quickly beat Marcus in combat prowess. Zealot will be recruited to give me an easier time in Chapter 8 with his movement. I might consider getting Percival if necessary. As for foot units, Dieck has a nice base stat lead, so he might see some use. I can forgo recruiting Rutger since I can get a Killing Edge in Ch7. I'll probably consider one or two other units based on availability and their combat ability. Anyway, what I've planned so far is this: Chapter 1: give Alan a level up, get the 5000 gold, Marcus kills boss Chapter 2: shopping for hand axes and javelins (I can get all the 1-2 range weapons I need in a single shopping trip, and they will go a lot further than a normal speedrun since I can manipulate crits and lengthen their use), give Armorslayer to Roy, Thany transports Roy to boss, crit kill on enemy phase. (base Strength Roy can't manage it with the Rapier, the Armorslayer adds 3 extra might which is just enough on a crit) Yeah I've not planned too far ahead yet. I've got several ideas for the later chapters, but they will likely come down to what units I plan to use. I did make a WIP video of my plan for Chapter 1, so any suggestions for improving if any that would be appreciated. Chapter 1 WIP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFyz7XyCf28
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On enemy phase, you can press start to heavily reduce the amount of time that dotted square surrounds your character. I think you might've also been able to skip the village cutscene faster. Planning for this run will be a pain since unlike FE7-8 you cannot really beef anyone up to kill everything in sight with hand weapons. I expect you'll probably be doing most of the work with Thany anyways, and that it won't be productive to raise Miledy. If you want to raise a horse user, Lance would probably be a better choice since you can get him to double earlier.
Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39
Vykan12 wrote:
On enemy phase, you can press start to heavily reduce the amount of time that dotted square surrounds your character.
I know I've mentioned this before (several times?), but holding A should work just fine for that. Then again, I haven't played this game in ages. Chapter 1 looked good otherwise. I do kind of wish you'd try Hard mode instead, but I guess that might require bending SRAM rules or something. Pure speed (Normal) is good too though, of course. :) (I don't have any real interest in the planning part of this. Sorry.)
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Hmm, I considered using Lance since he has the speed advantage over Alan. You are probably right though, +2 Speed is better than +2 Str in the long run, especially since crits can compensate for the reduced Strength. (And since there's no Con difference between the two, Lance will probably win out in the long run). Since I'm having to redo Ch1 anyway to fix the enemy cursor issue, I'll change my strategy so Lance is the one transporting Roy and getting the kills fed to him. I can still reach the 5000 g village in Turn 2 with Alan anyway so that isn't an issue, and Lance still has enough move to get into the same position as Alan was in my original WIP, so the same general tactic can be applied. As for Hard mode, I would like to do that, but I'm not confident enough in my skills to do that yet.
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
+2 Speed is better than +2 Str in the long run, especially since crits can compensate for the reduced Strength.
Actually crits could compensate for lack of spd as well, but the compensation would be much larger (eg/ needing to crit every enemy encounter instead of just vs armors). I know you get the idea, so wtv.
As for Hard mode, I would like to do that, but I'm not confident enough in my skills to do that yet.
I wouldn't call it a matter of skill moreso than patience (eg/ RNG burning for longer), particularly in the planning aspect of the run. At any rate, the FE8 run was about an hour long, this one will be even longer, playing on hard mode probably wouldn't be worth it from an entertainment viewpoint IMO.
Rolanmen1
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I tried this myself but with Lance instead of Alan, my veredict is that it's more faster with Alan. Why is this? Just because the simple fact that Alan have higher Str, the point is, since Lance deals 9 dmg to enemies, he needs 3 hits to kill them, while Alan does 11 dmg, with an upper hand of 2HKO on enemies. So i recommend leaving your plan like that, but you still have to re-do. I will do another try with Alan. NOTE: This is faster for this chapter, so you might want to level up Alan's Spd for the next chapters.
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Chapter 1 Improvement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btL6AxjlkEo Lance only deals with one enemy this time, so less time wasted there. Otherwise I took on board the advice given and managed to improve this chapter by 562 frames. It's amazing how much time is saved just by holding B or A when appropriate. Also I think I need to figure out how to encode from VBA better, noobtube really mucks the quality up for some reason (it plays fine normally for me).
Joined: 8/3/2004
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Location: Finland
Awesome, it's always nice to see SRPGs being TASed.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Rolanmen1
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Hmm, you could've used the Silver Lance against the boss, so you wouldn't haved manipulate a critical, that is of course if Marcus doesn't miss. Anyway, this one looks realy good now.
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Hmm, you could've used the Silver Lance against the boss, so you wouldn't haved manipulate a critical, that is of course if Marcus doesn't miss.
Manipulating the critical is faster (frames lost to RN burning vs seconds lost to a boss attack + an extra attack from Marcus), plus the silver lance should be saved for later use anyway. Very impressive, can't wait from more, Toothache.
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Chapter 2 WIP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muqP1JefmB4 VBM file: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1414533824/FE6_Toothache_Ch2_WIP.vbm I would have had this done much sooner, if not for some real life issues. Anyway, here's Chapter 2 done in 5 turns. First thing here is getting Roy to Thany ASAP. However, Marcus dropping him off means that Thany would reach the right place to drop Roy in front of the boss on Turn 5. So I have Ward drop Roy off instead, so Thany can pick him up and just reach on Turn 4. Dieck seems to lure 3 soldiers and a fighter away from the group of enemies near the boss. If I move closer however, more of them move in his direction. This is a slight problem since two of the soldiers sport javelins. Easiest solution was for Lot to kill one of them and Dieck finish the other, the rest fall to Dieck on enemy phase. Alan is used to finish the soldiers and fighters south of the starting group, and to clear a path for Marcus to reach Thany. Lance gives Alan his Javelin, and picks up the Armorslayer and buys 8 more Javelins (which should be just enough to cover the whole game, if I feel I need another I can get it when I buy some hand axes). Roy is dropped by the boss and double-crits to finish him off. I could have used Thany to get closer and lure some of the enemies away, but Roy didn't have a problem surviving that enemy phase thankfully.
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Toothache's project has suddenly turned into a 4 person collaboration: Him, me, Roland and Cheetah7071. Nitrodon might participate too. Anyway, I'm looking at some planning decisions for the run. So far I've found the following: Boss data -Roy must get a C support with Thany by the time Murdock is faced. It hasn’t been tested if this is viable or not. -Thany must have D rank in swords by the time Murdock is faced. This hasn’t been verified either as being viable. -Scott will be killed in 2 phases. Thany needs a minimum of 8 levels with +str and +spd. She can either use an iron lance and quadruple crit or a steel lance and double crit for the 2RKO. -Narshen will be killed by a killer lance double crit. The wyrmslayer is another option. -Roartz will be killed by a killer lance double crit. If Percival gets 4 levels by then, he can also pull a ORKO with a hammer. -Murdock will be killed by a single armorslayer crit followed by a regular armorslayer hit. -Zephiel will be killed by a brave lance quadruple crit. The remaining bosses aren't a problem. Chapter specific stuff A route is used in both cases. That means we recruit Lalum and go Ilia route. In chapter 21, I worked out a strategy where Thany doesn’t use up a single weapon use except on Murdock. I made a VBM to illustrate this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/857522935/Chapter21Sketch.vbm The finer details of the chapter plan will be worked out when we get there. The only reason I did this was to get some data on how many javelins and other weapons we’ll need to buy. In chapter 22, you need about 23 str and 20 spd to have reliable offense. Marcus has 9 base strength so it's pretty likely he won’t get used in that chapter. However, a lv 20/0 Allen could probably manage just fine, as can Percival if we choose to recruit him. To do We need 3 chapter 1 TASes. One is a 3 turn where Lance is sacrificed. The second is a 4 turn where the village is skipped, and the third is a 4 turn with the village visited (it gives 5k gold). Roland promised to do a TAS of chapter 12 in 21 turns and one of chapter 12 + 12x low turned to determine which is faster. I am still working out the weapon usage over the run (mainly javelins).
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Allen has worse base strength than Marcus. If Marcus can't have reliable offense (when at least he's guaranteed a silver lance/maybe the divine lance), neither will Allen without promoting. Now, it may turn out faster to promote Allen, but an unpromoted Allen will be worse than Marcus offensively.
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Alan levels up a lot faster than Marcus, which is why it is a good idea to raise him. And he's only two Str points behind at base, easily enough to catch up. Anyway, I'll redo my 4 turn with the 5000 g village, I've got a couple of ideas that might speed that up. First thing to fix is turning the help subtitles off, I missed that in my previous runs.
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Roland confirmed that the 3 turn is slower than a 4 turn due to the increased amount of RNG abuse required. Chapter 20 sketch http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1964062197/Chapter20Sketch.vbm Basically another pacifist chapter, meaning no consumption of javelins. I have a ~6-7 turn plan for C22, I can't be bothered to explain it here so ask me about it through IM if you're curious. Me and Cheetah also worked out that Chapter 15 can be 3 turned whether we acquire the hammerne or not. I have yet to test out the 3 turn in practice, though. Anyway, it's increasingly prevalent to me that we won't have to stock up on that many javelins. 5 will probably suffice so long as we get a decent amount more out of recruitment + enemy drops. Moreover, the javelin's usefulness won't be as high as in the FE8 run since the enemies in this game are actually remotely difficult to kill. I still intend to find the required amount systematically, though.
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Here's another attempt at chapter 1. The movements were changed from toothache's version just by thinking they were faster with no actual testing, so testing does have to be done. Even if the strategy is fastest, I'm sure a few frames can be squeezed out by manipulating the RNG more efficiently (i.e., more RNs per frame). http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1760087679/FE6speed.vbm
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http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1581008712/FE6.vbm Encode for the lazy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggG0mGgRD8 I took cheetah's Ch1 and tried to find any improvements, but there were none in the strategy itself that I could improve on. I did optimise it to be 15 frames faster though, mostly with different RN manipulations, and fixed a minor error at the start. EDIT: Nitrodon spotted an improvement by cancelling the auto scrolling that comes with some attacks on the boss, 6 more frame saved. Total improvement over cheetah's Ch1: 21 frames.
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I decided to work on a test run because this game is just too difficult to plan through total theorycrafting. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/192234138/Test%20run%20Chp1-15.vbm First 2 chapters are Toothache's old run, the rest is mine. I'm not going to put much effort optimizing moves or RNG burns since the ultimate goal of this is to come up with realistic strategies, have a proper look at item management, etc.
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Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to resign from working on the run. The WIP in the last post is up to date, so I'm just going to give all the data I collected so far (really messy though, and some of it is outdated such as the Thany bits). Link 1 Link 2 Remember that the test run has to be re-done from C14 since Alan is the better recipient of the boots in the long run.
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Sorry to hear you aren't continuing to help, but thanks for all the work you have done so far, it has been immensely helpful. I'll be getting seriously back into this shortly, it is about time I got my hands dirty with planning anyway.
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Ok, I've put this off for months, so I'm just posting to say I am back working on this. Working from the latest Ch1, here's Chapter 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UImftSGFMNU Major differences here between previous Ch2 is skipping the shops, not getting the Armorslayer, and using more characters to clear the first group of enemies. Since I'm convinced Alan is the better of the two social knights to raise, I prioritise giving him exp, but Lance comes to help here yet again - first to give Alan the Javelin, and second to stand on the fort avoiding healing on turn 3. Marcus takes Lot's Hand Axe and clears up the few enemies moving towards Dieck's group, giving Marcus a few more exp and Axe wexp, while Roy is ferried across the mountains to the boss, finishing again with a double critical. Skipping the shopping for Javelins here, I can get Hand Axes AND Javelins in Ch4, solving my ranged weapon needs in one visit. The shop itself is a bit out of the way, but it will be faster than making two trips in Ch2 and 9 for javelins and hand axes respectively. As for the Armorslayer, from the test run we discovered we can avoid it altogether and just take Oujay's in Ch8. Test run is not finished yet, but we can at least do the first 3 chapters for the final run, until we know how many 1-2 range weapons we need we are still stuck until that is finished.
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Chapter 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrokpb_BAw Progress has been made! I had an annoying hurdle on the first turn, since Alan was getting a level up and having to deal with an archer. I could either manipulate the level up for him, or a crit on the archer, since he wasn't able to double with Javelin, but the RNs weren't possible to do both on that turn, at least not within the first 1000 RNs or so (by which point it would take far too long to manipulate). So in the end I settled for Alan getting his level up, and I brought in Lance to shift the archer out of the way, allowing Marcus and Alan a clearer path towards the boss. Lance took a Strength level up here, might be useful in a future chapter (test run makes use of Lance in Ch6 at least, and Ch7 would have some potential use for him as well). Rest of the chapter then revolves around pushing Alan and Marcus forward as far as possible, with the few soldiers moving towards the main group dealt with by Lot, Ward and Bors. Ward doesn't have a crit rate, so he is forced to double to kill the two soldiers he deals with. Later on Roy gets dropped early so he can seize, and gets to help clear up the enemies nearby. I manipulate a Speed/Luck level up to improve his avoid. Marcus takes out the boss, and the rest clean house before Roy seizes the throne. Apart from the use of Lance, and obviously a lot more criticals, this strategy generally follows the same tactic as used in the test run. Alan isn't that far behind in terms of exp gained by this point, he should still be well on course for promoting at the same point as in the test run, in Ch8.
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Right, you will be pleased to know I'm back working on this. Unfortunately I no longer have the original WIP file, so I'm having to redo the first 3 chapters from scratch. I've managed to make a couple of minor optimisations with the RNG manipulation, probably no more than a few frames though. I'm at the middle of Ch2 atm, I'll post the vbm file when I get to the end of Ch3. As for Ch4, I can generally wing it with the amount of shopping. If I find myself short of Javelins, I can get more when I buy Killer Lances in Ch13. I have a rough idea of how many I'll need. My plan is to get Marcus to D axes by Ch8, which will allow him to 2HKO the boss with Hammer (Armorslayer misses by 2 damage). I also need to make sure Alan has C Swords by the time he hits Ch12 in order to use Wyrmslayer on Aion. Other than that, Vykan's test run should give a good start to planning the first dozen or so chapters. I'm also thinking ahead to Ch15. Now that the idea is to give Alan the Boots instead of Miledy, it makes getting Hammerne on turn 3 tricky without wasting a lot of time. I don't have a strategy in mind yet, but I've got plenty of time to consider it by the time I get there.
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New WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1858168921/FE6%20Ch1-3%20WIP.vbm Main improvement has come in Ch3. Ch1 and 2 have had some minor RNG optimisation. I'm a little worried Alan might be short on exp now that he kills one less enemy here, but I think I can deal with that. There are plenty of enemies that can fill that gap in Ch8 after all, and earlier.
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