I was wondering,
In Shining Force 2, you can use a cheat to speed up dialog, cursor movement, and things like that. I think it's the only effet that it does. Can this be used while making a TAS ?
Isn't there some cheats in Street Fighter to boost the speed to a maximum level ?
I know it's a slippery slope, that's why most of the cheat we use must be discuss before using them. But it might be able to shave a couple of minutes on a more than 2-3 hours run.
I don't know how much, but it sure would speed it up for the entire lenght of the run.
The characters moves faster (doesn't matter the game is base on turn by turn play)
The cursor move faster (doesn't matter for the same reason)
The dialog goes faster (less talking).
I doubt that there's anything that can be call an advantage over a normal play. It would just reduce the lenght of the movie.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Err, no? The SF2 runs use a feature built in to the options menu to speed things up. It's much different.
The only comparable trick on the site is the Zanac run that uses an input command to skip whole stages. However, I think that was pre-approved as a bug, rather than a cheat.
Nope. Otherwise, there would be argument to allow cheats that remove speed caps in games/unlock new weapons/etc. It's a slippery slope.
I suppose we are talking about cheats which can be performed from the game itself (eg. by pressing a certain combination of buttons at a certain place, it basically being a kind of easter egg programmed into the game) rather than eg. gamegenie codes etc?
I was wondering: What is the basic difference between abusing cheats (the "easter eggs" hidden in the game) and abusing bugs/glitches? Why is abusing bugs ok, but abusing cheats not?
This brings up a (more or less philosophical) question: If abusing a bug would cause basically the same effect as a cheat (be it an actual cheat existing in the game, or a potential one), would it be allowed?
Likewise: If a bug allows doing effectively the same thing as a gamegenie code, would it be allowed?
Joined: 8/1/2004
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A bug is not a cheat. A bug is a 'flaw' in the programming that allows for unintended consequences. A cheat is a deliberate part of the programming that allows for intended consequences.
Bisqwit and SDA have both gone in to great detail on this topic. I honestly don't expect to see any more debate on this distinction.
Likewise: If a bug allows doing effectively the same thing as a gamegenie code, would it be allowed?
That's what those "reset in the middle of a SRAM save" bugs do, in my opinion. I don't really like them (they're not very "legal" -they depend a lot in the used emulator- and it's not much fun seeing the memory values being freely manipulated like that), but they've been accepted before.
Warp wrote:
we are talking about cheats which can be performed from the game itself rather than eg. gamegenie codes
If that's the case, I think the cheat in the first post should be allowed and recommended to use. It can be made in a real console and doesn't affect the difficulty or the route taken in the game.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
That's what those "reset in the middle of a SRAM save" bugs do, in my opinion. I don't really like them (they're not very "legal" -they depend a lot in the used emulator- and it's not much fun seeing the memory values being freely manipulated like that), but they've been accepted before.
I think they are accepted because, at least in theory, they could be replicated in the real console and are thus not something introduced purely by the emulator.
But if SRAM corruption through resetting trickery can be considered as having the same effect as using a gamegenie device, it raises the interesting question of why the former is allowed but the latter isn't, even though the end result is basically the same.
I don't see why a speed-up cheat couldn't be used as long as it's mentioned in the publication. Just like the no-suit cheat in Metroid. And aren't difficulty-raising cheat generally allowed? I don't see a reason not to use a cheat that only adds something cosmetic or makes the game more challenging.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
Kyrsimys wrote:
I don't see why a speed-up cheat couldn't be used as long as it's mentioned in the publication. Just like the no-suit cheat in Metroid.
The no suit trick in Metroid is purely visual and does not save time at all. It is entirely not comparable to using a cheat to speed a game up.
Kyrsimys wrote:
And aren't difficulty-raising cheat generally allowed? I don't see a reason not to use a cheat that only adds something cosmetic or makes the game more challenging.
The cheat code we are talking about here is neither cosmetic nor challenge modifying. It is purely for the sake of making things in the game move faster. In the past, we have actively rejected the idea of using cheats to speed up the game (Gradius III and Nosferatu, for example).
If it makes any difference, the "speed up" cheat in shining force 2 only affects the cursor scroll rate in battle, and the text display rate. Characters all still walk at the same speed, etc.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
The cheat code we are talking about here is neither cosmetic nor challenge modifying.
I'm afraid I must still disagree. I don't see speeding up cursor movements as "speeding up the game" per se but rather making non-important parts of the game go by faster and thus improving the experience of the viewer. I definitely don't see using this cheat leading to people wanting to use other kinds of cheats.
The definition of cosmetic according to dictionary.com is "used or done superficially to make something look better, more attractive, or more impressive", which I think fits nicely in this case.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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So if there was a cheat in SMRPG that gave you +100000 damage mod to the first hammer, would you be against using it? It would speed up all those pesky battles that slow down an otherwise quick run. Surely, the idea of OHKOing everything in the game would be considered "more impressive," right?
Sure, that's taking it a bit far, but the logic stands. We shouldn't be using cheats to speed up things just because it would be faster to use them. It's the poster child of slippery slopes.
Sure, that's taking it a bit far, but the logic stands.
No, it doesn't because it's not the same thing at all. As I said in my previous post, the Shining Force 2 cheat is about speeding up the non-important parts of the game. I don't think anyone can seriously claim that in SMRPG battles are non-important parts of the game. These two examples are in no way comparable. I'd rather compare this cheat to, say, cutting out loading times or the "get item" fanfares in Super Metroid.
EDIT: Oh, and OHKOing every enemy using cheats being more impressive, wtf? We're really not on the same wavelength.
Nope. Otherwise, there would be argument to allow cheats that remove speed caps in games/unlock new weapons/etc. It's a slippery slope.
Well, the people in the thread, who are actually going to WATCH the run (read: Not Zurreco or Warp), have pretty unanimously voted for the use of the code. Thus, I'm going to go with the people who actually want the run, and are excited to see it.
It does NOT affect the randomization. It just affects the amount of time the viewer has to sit and watch the cursor move around the screen. Since this game can't be uber-optimized like SF1, I think I'll spare the audience a slow cursor.
It also does NOT speed up the rate at which text is displayed, It also does not speed up character movement.
ZeXr0: I wish you hadn't even brought this up. Anyone who cares about this run has already spoken in favor of it. Its not going to save minutes, its going to save hours. The run will easily be 4 hours long.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
Kyrsimys wrote:
the Shining Force 2 cheat is about speeding up the non-important parts of the game.
My whole point is that everything in the run is going to be important, as it maintains consistency. If you're going to change one thing in the game for the sake of speediness, that opens the possibility of changing other things too.
DarkKobold wrote:
the people in the thread, who are actually going to WATCH the run (read: Not Zurreco or Warp)
This is dumb you're dumb. I would gladly watch the run if it was interesting WITHOUT the need for speeding up cursor movement. If you can honestly say that the run would be good without changing anything, I don't see why you would need to implement the cheat in the first place. If you can't say that, I don't know why you would want the run up on the site.
That being said, don't assume. And don't ever bunch me together with Warp.
Your ability to create intelligent arguments amazes me.
Zurreco wrote:
I would gladly watch the run if it was interesting WITHOUT the need for speeding up cursor movement. If you can honestly say that the run would be good without changing anything, I don't see why you would need to implement the cheat in the first place. If you can't say that, I don't know why you would want the run up on the site.
It will be interesting to those who will find it interesting (read: NOT YOU). The speed-up cheat will simply save them hours of their life. I'm 100% sure the fans of the run would watch it either way, but it turns a 6 hour run into a 4 hour run, with the ONLY difference being the amount of time spent watching a cursor move between enemies.
Zurreco wrote:
That being said, don't assume. And don't ever bunch me together with Warp.
Did you watch any of my 4 submissions of Shining Force 1? I highly doubt it, as you didn't post in any of the threads. Thus, I find your opinion pretty dang useless. If a judge wants to chime in, I'm all ears.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
My whole point is that everything in the run is going to be important, as it maintains consistency. If you're going to change one thing in the game for the sake of speediness, that opens the possibility of changing other things too.
That just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm happy to leave it at that.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Warp wrote:
Exactly what do you have against me? Just state it openly.
You're a pee pee poo poo. Actually, it's much deeper than that, but it boils down to your inability to see other peoples' arguments, regardless of how logical they may be. It gets really frustrating.
DarkKobold wrote:
Your ability to create intelligent arguments amazes me.
I was hoping you would realize that the simplicity of the statement was a strong enough allusion to the sarcastic nature therein. Do I have to start using JXQ's blaring sarcasm macro now
DarkKobold wrote:
Did you watch any of my 4 submissions of Shining Force 1? I highly doubt it, as you didn't post in any of the threads. Thus, I find your opinion pretty dang useless. If a judge wants to chime in, I'm all ears.
I did watch your SF1 first submission, which I admittedly gave a 2 in entertainment. To be fair, I've only watched maybe 10 runs in the last year or so, mostly because I have been too busy to really watch anything that wasn't sloppily encoded in the Workbench/something of great interest to me. I'm not the hugest fan of the series, but I will still sit through the runs and give props where they are due.
If you are creating runs for niche viewers, though, that's pretty silly. I would watch a 6 hour run of any game if it was entertaining. If you're going to start writing off the opinions of people who aren't just dying to see runs of games you like, I hope you don't take any opposition to heart.
That being said, I think this debate has pretty much come to a stand still. The idea of using cheats to speed up games has been rejected in the past, but maybe there will be an exception for this. Let the judges decide how things will go from here.
Joined: 4/21/2004
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I fully agree with Zurreco. My personal opinion is that no matter how harmless it may be, I think the cursor should not be tampered with for the sake of consistency and perhaps some other factor which I cannot at the moment think of (^_^).
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Since the cheat is provided by the game (it's not out-of-game manipulation), and it doesn't even change the gameplay, then why should it be considered a cheat at all (as opposed to an "option" or "secret option")? And what if the same option was directly on the main menu? Why should the name or location of an option change how acceptable it is to use it, as opposed to what it actually does? Also, if it did change the gameplay, it would easily be accepted if you could make an argument that it makes the game more difficult in any way, so it seems odd that something that changes even less than that would not be considered.
Exactly what do you have against me? Just state it openly.
You're a pee pee poo poo. Actually, it's much deeper than that, but it boils down to your inability to see other peoples' arguments, regardless of how logical they may be. It gets really frustrating.
Exactly how was I so unable to see other people's arguments here? Why did I deserve such insulting remark from you?
You just can't go and publicly write an insulting remark like I was some kind of lowlife, just for the sake of it. At least have the decency of saying what exactly prompted such childish behavior from your part.
Have I ever attacked, mocked or insulted you?
What I don't understand, is why is there a built-in cheat that does this in the first place. Shouldn't that have been an option in the game? After few replays (and movie views) most people want cursor and story parts to move faster.
So, why was it hidden? It proves that the slowness of the cursor is done on purpose rather than due to technical limitations.
I'm really confused. How exactly do you activate this 'cheat'?
Also Warp, please drop it. The reason you don't know why Zurreco doesn't like you is why he doesn't like you.
