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Fire n' Ice is the sequal to Solomon's Key. The goal of this puzzle game is to remove fires using iceblocks.
  • Movie plays back on: FCEUX 2.1.5.
  • Emulator originally used: FCEU 0.98.28 (I converted the .fcm to .fm2, but the resulting movie file was over 5mb large, compared to the .fcm which was 92 kb. So the submitted movie file is the .fcm due to the 150kb limit on movie files. The .fm2 did synch, however.)
  • Aims for fastest possible time.
  • Genre: Puzzle.

About the game

Fire n' Ice is a puzzle game, where the goal is to remove fires using iceblocks. Our hero, Dana, can create new iceblocks and move them around by pushing them. The game is not very complicated, I belive you will have no problems understanding how the game works simply by watching this TAS.

How this run compares to Ragowit's TAS

The biggest difference between this TAS and Ragowit's TAS is that this one is done on the U version of the game, while Ragowit's TAS was recorded on the E version. Besides the obvious PAL/NTSC difference between the two game versions, the only differences are:
  • The screen scrolls faster on the U version than on the E version (see level 3-10, for example).
  • Enemies that move, move faster on the U version than on the E version.
  • The final boss level is different.
Because of the first two points, most of the final levels on each world are played differently than in Ragowit's TAS.
In total, 24 of the 101 levels are played differently than in Ragowit's TAS. In most of the levels, the improvement is very minor and saves only a few frames, while in other levels, the improvement can add up to a few seconds.
They levels that have new strategies are: They are: 1-10, 2-4, 2-10, 3-3, 4-1, 4-2, 4-6 ,5-3 ,5-5 ,5-6 ,7-1 ,7-6 ,7-7 ,7-9 ,7-10 ,8-10 ,9-2 ,9-6 ,9-7 ,10-1 ,10-4 ,10-7 ,10-9 and 10-10 final boss.
It's hard to compare this run to Ragowit's run due to the version difference, but I've calculated that the improved strategies alone add up to about 30 seconds. I did not consider optimized movements, although I don't think there are many of them.
The in-game timer increases faster in the U version than in the E version. That's why my in-game time always is higher than in Ragowit's TAS.
Observant viewers might also spot what looks to be wall-hacking in a few levels. If you press left+right after you've performed an action, it will be visually performed again. Dana won't actually perform the movement again, but his sprite will move in that way. So if you move from left to right and then hold down left+right, Dana's sprite will continue running, even run inside a wall if there is one next to him. But again, this is just a visual glitch, and Dana doesn't actually move anywhere.

Closure:

The reason for the low re-record count is simply because this game is extremely easy to TAS. Once you have the strategy for a level planned out, you don't need many re-records at all to record it. I also used a lua-script that allowed me to use less re-records than I normally would.
If you find an improvement to this run, please don't hesitate to let me know. This game is very edit-friendly, so the improvement can easily be edited in, without any risk of desynchs.
I'd like to thank the following people:
  • Obviously Ragowit, for his TAS. Most of the strategies he used are still used in this TAS.
  • Wilson Lau for his FAQ on Gamefaqs. Ragowit said in his author's comments that he used about 90% of Wilson's strategies in his TAS. In turn, I used about 80% of Ragowit's strategies in my TAS, so Wilson's guide is really good, even for a tool assisted speedrun of the game.
  • Slotermeyer for his strategies on levels 2-4 and 2-10.
  • Aglar for his strategy on 1-10.
  • Xepher for his improvement on 8-10.
  • Omega for his encode of Ragowit's TAS. I used that encode a lot for comparisons.
  • Everyone else who has shown interest in this game!
It was fun making this TAS, and I hope you'll enjoy watching it.
Bisqwit: Submission updated ― author says the movie was improved by 36 frames.
mmbossman: I'm rejecting this movie due to viewer feedback and concerns regarding (lack of) entertainment value. Good luck on your next project Randil.
Nach: Here's the video to watch directly: (Flowplayer module removed) This video is a great Solomon's Key 2 walkthrough / Fire 'n Ice walkthrough.
Here's some post ending video with a bit of a surprise: (Flowplayer module removed)
adelikat Unrejecting this submission for consideration into the Vault tier
Nach: This movie was actually one of our most searched for movies a while back. Perfect for a vault category.
Brandon: Publication underway.

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Posted: 7/29/2009 4:12 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
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I don't plan on watching the run so I won't comment on that, but I'd like to address these pieces of faulty logic.
gia wrote:
Unpopular game rejected last I heard was to be changed in the mentality of tasvideos.
For one, I don't think there has been an established agreement that we should accept TASes of every game out there. Last I checked it was still loosely based on entertainment value, which this run I'm afraid doesn't deliver well.
gia wrote:
Long tas? there's way longer, long boring tas? pokemon gold is 2 hours plus, pokemon is boring, easier to watch in fast forward.
Using Pokemon as an acceptance backdoor for every TAS that's also very long and boring doesn't sound convincing. For one, we also have Jaws published on the site. Popular opinion indicates that nearly every game is better than Jaws. Ergo, we should publish every game?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/29/2009 4:13 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Indeed we should!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/29/2009 6:27 PM
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gia
Player (109)
Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223
Glitchy TAS of 2008 Innovative TAS of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
moozooh wrote:
I don't plan on watching the run so I won't comment on that, but I'd like to address these pieces of faulty logic.
Hmm, faulty logic?, I'm not strong in logic but the first one is an statement which could be true or false, that doesn't make it faulty right?, it just doesn't make it a very strong point since it is not validated. Is that enough to be considered logic anyway? in any case your statements could be false too. The admins could set that clear of course. About the second one, if you don't like it doesn't make it faulty logic, I'm just using a precedent. A guy strong in logic could maybe spot a flaw I guess, what you said is not the same comparison as mine. You say Jaws is a short and unpopular-game tas, I stated one long and boring tas. So hmm if you follow my logic and your statement it would be more like Jaws got accepted, then any short tas with a length similar to Jaws can be accepted regardless of game popularity. Now I used pokemon because I watched that one and the movie stats don't show all of the long movies, just the top 10, but can't be the only long tas that is boring to many.
Posted: 7/29/2009 6:37 PM
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moozooh
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Joined: 8/4/2005
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Location: Away
By faulty logic, I meant that your arguments in that post were based around erroneous/unfounded assumptions. First, "this run is going to be rejected because the game is unpopular" (leading to "unpopular game rejected last I heard was to be changed in the mentality of tasvideos"). Second, "if we have a long/boring movie published it gives us the excuse to have more comparably long/boring movies published" (leading to "there are way longer, boring TAS"). If you discard these assumptions, the arguments are no longer valid, or even relevant.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/29/2009 9:53 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Oh wow! I remember Ragowit's run and how much I disagreed with it being rejected. Now it's been redone, and it looks much better. A clear unequivocal yes from me. The main objection from people here seems to be that the game is boring. I disagree with that. Although it's "just a puzzle game", isn't it very interesting to see all the perfect solutions deciphered right in front of you? You know, I can get behind the idea that this game's entertainment value might be difficult to see for some people. It isn't an action game. It was never meant to be. In that sense it isn't as easy to understand this run as, say, a Metroid game--there's not a lot of movement, nobody's being shot, the scenery stays mostly the same. But I'd find it real shame if it were determined again that this game is not fit for this site just because it's different from what most people are used to.
Posted: 7/29/2009 10:28 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Omega wrote:
Although it's "just a puzzle game", isn't it very interesting to see all the perfect solutions deciphered right in front of you?
Yes, although sometimes as I watch Dana go, I get a sense of "Why doesn't he just...?" that could have been put to rest if I were proactive enough to make a savestate at the beginning of each level and try my idea, only to find out why it doesn't work. Darn puzzle games where it's easy to forget the rules! Darn ice that sticks to walls!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/30/2009 12:12 AM
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Zurreco
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Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Omega wrote:
Although it's "just a puzzle game", isn't it very interesting to see all the perfect solutions deciphered right in front of you?
Would you vote Yes for a maze game? As in, the whole game is a series of preset mazes, top down, and the run takes the optimized path. Is that interesting by your standards? I know it's a weak comparison, but it still makes my point. You have a puzzle game that, given enough planning, could be handled ideally by a large portion of users on the site. Some of the levels were confusingly simple, sure, but that doesn't undo the drastically less interesting levels in between.
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Posted: 7/30/2009 1:35 AM
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Acheron86
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
moozooh wrote:
Acheron86 wrote:
obviously a good deal of others agree, because it was published.
While I mostly agree with your post, you got this part backwards: it's published because people agree, not the other way around.
Aw, I like the version of the world I came up with where publishing instantly makes people like runs. :P But yeah, that's what I should've said, oops.
Omega wrote:
The main objection from people here seems to be that the game is boring. I disagree with that. Although it's "just a puzzle game", isn't it very interesting to see all the perfect solutions deciphered right in front of you?
Zurreco said half of what I wanted to say. The other half is a problem particular to this game: the puzzles just don't look all that hard. Maybe it gets more challenging later, but you have to wade through so much crap to do it. What's more, the puzzle system looks poorly designed. You can make pushable ice blocks, but only if you start from a wall, make a platform two tiles long, and then remove the other ice block? Why not just make ice blocks? That's the kind of thing that would really annoy me in a puzzle game. Again, I'm sure that this game is fun for a subset of people, and those people probably enjoy watching a TAS as well. I just don't think it's publishable material... and I can't imagine I would ever recommend watching this run (or even playing this game). It probably shone brighter during the NES era.
I will not use self-reference in my signature.
Posted: 7/30/2009 3:08 AM
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Cheezwizz
Joined: 11/2/2007
Posts: 103
mmbossman wrote:
Cheezwizz, have you actually watched this run?
From start to finish. You think i'm going to argue about something that is bad to me?
Posted: 7/30/2009 3:44 AM
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gia
Player (109)
Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223
Glitchy TAS of 2008 Innovative TAS of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
moozooh wrote:
By faulty logic, I meant that your arguments in that post were based around erroneous/unfounded assumptions. First, "this run is going to be rejected because the game is unpopular" (leading to "unpopular game rejected last I heard was to be changed in the mentality of tasvideos"). Second, "if we have a long/boring movie published it gives us the excuse to have more comparably long/boring movies published" (leading to "there are way longer, boring TAS"). If you discard these assumptions, the arguments are no longer valid, or even relevant.
You tried to read too much between lines, I did not say the first, there's more yeses than noes afaik, I was just arguing the no-ers (which might have voted or not). On the second, my assumption is wrong if every submission is judged on its own and without taking into consideration any precedents or anything else whatsoever. A judge could set me straight?
Posted: 7/30/2009 4:59 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Acheron86 wrote:
You can make pushable ice blocks, but only if you start from a wall, make a platform two tiles long, and then remove the other ice block? Why not just make ice blocks? That's the kind of thing that would really annoy me in a puzzle game.
Hm, I suppose that does get old. I remember one comment on a video saying that if you could just make ice blocks in front of you, it would be more like a side-view Kickle Cubicle style game, with lots of quick block-pushing action. But I guess they wanted to go for a Lode Runner feel with the magic wand instead. (Hey, there's an idea! Let's make a Lode Runner speedrun!)
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/30/2009 6:48 AM
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MUGG
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Joined: 5/15/2007
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I found myself fastforwarding after 20 minutes of it, then stopped when I reached 90k frames. I think the game lacks some gameplay elements and variety. I wouldn't watch it again...
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Posted: 7/30/2009 9:32 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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moozooh wrote:
Using Pokemon as an acceptance backdoor for every TAS that's also very long and boring doesn't sound convincing.
But it would be nice to at least appear to have a consistent threshold of boredom when it comes to deciding publication.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:48 AM
(Edited: 7/31/2009 12:52 AM)
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Nightwatch
Joined: 2/12/2008
Posts: 67
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
moozooh wrote:
gia wrote:
Long tas? there's way longer, long boring tas? pokemon gold is 2 hours plus, pokemon is boring, easier to watch in fast forward.
Using Pokemon as an acceptance backdoor for every TAS that's also very long and boring doesn't sound convincing. For one, we also have Jaws published on the site. Popular opinion indicates that nearly every game is better than Jaws. Ergo, we should publish every game?
To me the biggest problem, which is stated in the description, is:
The reason for the low re-record count is simply because this game is extremely easy to TAS. Once you have the strategy for a level planned out, you don't need many re-records at all to record it.
This is what makes this run different from Pokemon, which is more difficult to TAS because of all the luck manipulation. Things that make TAS's difficult also tend to make them more entertaining (with a few exceptions, such as run speed optimization in SMW). If Pokemon had no luck manipulation potential, then it'd be just as boring. The fun of otherwise boring TAS's like Pokemon is the way a TASer will win despite insurmountable odds by cracking the RNG. But this run looks like a video version of a GameFAQs walkthrough. Edit: Donkey Kong for the NES is a good example of what I'm talking about, I think. Originally, it was a below average TAS, good but not particularly interesting. Once the "climb down the up ladder" trick was discovered, though, it became awesome. That's the kind of thing a game like this would need to be TASable, I'd think.
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:51 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Yeah, but he always uses the wand at the very first frame possible! Isn't that neat?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/31/2009 2:38 AM
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alden
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Joined: 2/11/2007
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I enjoyed this video. To those who got bored and stopped watching: it's a shame that earlier levels are much less entertaining than the later ones.
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Posted: 7/31/2009 2:46 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Yeah, the first half of world 1 is a bunch of freebie gimmies to show you how the game works. Then again, so is 11-1...
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:14 PM
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mmbossman
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GBx TAS of 2008
I watched, and found the entirity of the run very dull. Voted no.
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Posted: 8/3/2009 2:05 AM
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Acheron86
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Out of curiosity based on input in this thread, I went back and watched some of the later levels of the run. They're more interesting than the earlier levels, but only in the sense that the puzzles are more complex; nothing that a TAS highlights or makes special. Effectively, we're still just watching a slightly faster version of a pre-planned playthrough of this game. I find it interesting that this game has no "meh" votes, though.
I will not use self-reference in my signature.
Posted: 8/3/2009 2:41 AM
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Zurreco
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Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Meh is a bit of a taboo for some people here. It should only be used when you can't be fully confident that a run deserves to be voted one way or another. That is to say, a run that you don't want to support, but you have no reason to stand in its way either.
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Posted: 8/3/2009 3:41 AM
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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757
Acheron86 wrote:
Out of curiosity based on input in this thread, I went back and watched some of the later levels of the run. They're more interesting than the earlier levels, but only in the sense that the puzzles are more complex; nothing that a TAS highlights or makes special. Effectively, we're still just watching a slightly faster version of a pre-planned playthrough of this game.
Wow.. I am sure someone could literally apply that same quote to a Lolo title. Not me mind you... still waiting for an encode of that Lolo fcm that also completed Defender of the Crown where it shows them both side by side, and once DotC is done, it expands to the Lolo run fully. Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:01 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The Lolo runs have two key advantages: they're much faster-paced, and they have much more room for multiple non-obvious solutions to any given level. Having played a decent amount of Fire 'n Ice, most of the levels have just one solution, so the TAS devolves to implementing that solution as quickly as possible. There's also a third advantage the Lolo runs have that may as well be mentioned: they're already published on the site. That makes it much easier for improvements to be published.
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Posted: 8/3/2009 7:41 PM
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Kirkq
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Joined: 7/7/2006
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I never watched Solomon's Key, so I don't have that to compare to. I watched roughly 15 various minutes of the movie at varying points in the run. This run is long and slow paced, a boring combination. This run also demonstrates the theoretical fastest possible strategy for each level, which is a plus. If the game ran naturally at 200% speed it might be entertaining to see the levels beaten optimally, but as it is the movement is just obscenely slow. I'm going to go with Meh leaning towards no.
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Posted: 8/5/2009 7:13 AM
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TASVideosGrue
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om, nom, nom... want more!
Posted: 8/5/2009 7:28 AM
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Randil
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Joined: 4/20/2005
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TASVideos Grue wrote:
om, nom, nom... want more!
Haha, seems TASVideos Grue wants more of this game. :) I didn't know he had the right to be this biased. Well, it doesn't come as a big surprise that this was rejected, seeing as Ragowit's run was rejected for pretty much the same reasons. Personally, as stated in the author's comments, I found it fun to TAS this game, and I'm happy just having finished this long project, so I certainly don't feel like this was time wasted or anything. I'm also happy to see that a lot more people enjoyed watching this than I thought. :) At the same time, I do see the points from those who voted no - the game is indeed pretty slow and uneventful. Perhaps this is one of those games that are more fun to TAS than to watch. Anyway, it didn't really concern me if this got rejected or published, I can rest happily that I've given this game another chance. On to the next project! Perhaps this could even end up in Gruefood delight? (yes, I'm looking at you, alden)
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