Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Well I just watched it and I have a couple of observations:
* My gut feel is that the special stages can be faster. In particular in SS3 at the very end you turned right and then forward to collect the last two spheres, wouldn't it be quicker just to have turned left? (I admit, however, that I haven't watched Upthorn's run in a long time and so I don't know what he came up with)
* At the end of AI1 you both hit the signpost and did the Sonic-can-move-on-the-results-screen glitch, both of which cost you time. Not in-game time, but time. If that's an entertainment choice then this point is disregarded.
I don't mean to discourage you - I watched your Tails in Sonic 1 TAS and was suitably impressed (even though I'm not a great fan of just flying over levels) - because it's otherwise very well made.
I really recommend going with Sonic-only instead of Sonic+Tails for an all emerald run, for the following reasons:
It will make the run less similar to the Sonic+Tails one. It's good to try to make a TAS as unique as you possibly can (while staying within your goals), and having a different character choice will make that a lot easier. For a big example, consider Ice Cap zone...
You won't be "chained" to the actions of the Sonic+Tails run. Right now, it must be a huge pain to get the input to re-sync all the time, and whenever problems come up you're not as free to try new things to correct them as you would be if you were just controlling Sonic.
The above reasons could also be an argument for doing a Tails-only run, except I think Hyper Sonic wins by a landslide as far as TAS potential goes.
You can use the old input however much you want to, but I'm kind of against making TASes that reuse input a lot simply because there's so much lost opportunity for new discoveries or personal touches.
marzojr wrote:
Also, after the first special stage in AI2, I cannot figure out how to go through the floor except after it has finished falling; I would appreciate any pointers.
Sorry I don't remember too much about it besides it being ridiculously difficult to pull off, but I'd suggest checking Sonic's Y subpixel position compared to the movies where it worked, and also the frame difference between when the platform is first touched and when you try passing through it. It could be that the platform is swapped out for something else (or simply forgets to check collision for a frame) when it's preparing to fall, and you have to be at exactly the right Y position at exactly the right time in order to fall through it inside that 1 frame.
* My gut feel is that the special stages can be faster.[...]
You are probably right; but that was all Upthorn, I just pasted the special stage code. I think he was aiming more for entertainment in those stages.
mike wrote:
* At the end of AI1 you both hit the signpost
If you can believe it, that was a mistake I hadn't noticed. I copied the input from the Nitsuja movie, but Sonic was at a slightly different position; the start of the other stage did not desynch, so I missed it. It was not until you pointed it out and I watched it in real time that I noticed the difference.
nitsuja wrote:
It will make the run less similar to the Sonic+Tails one. [...]For a big example, consider Ice Cap zone...
Aye, a very good point. Originally, I was actually aiming for that similarity; but I hit a few snags that are convincing me more and more to do it otherwise.
One of these 'snags' is that I simply do not have many opportunities to showcase Supersonic: only MG1 (after picking up the emeralds) and LB2, as all other levels are skipped. Even in MG1, I have a shield after collecting the last emerald, and before I can lose it, I am forced to pick some speed shoes; since the shoes are canceled by the transformation, it is ultimately not worth it to be Supersonic in MG1. Suddenly, all of the S3 part is virtually identical to the no emeralds run...
nitsuja wrote:
You won't be "chained" to the actions of the Sonic+Tails run. Right now, it must be a huge pain to get the input to re-sync all the time, and whenever problems come up you're not as free to try new things to correct them as you would be if you were just controlling Sonic.
That is another snag. Synching up the players is hard, true, but not as hard as having to get subpixel positions exactly right. For example, at the end of AI2, after hitting that last spring, I had to manipulate the subpixel positions to be within 3 subpixels (in both directions) of that in your sun so that Sonic can do an early exit of the last tunnel: more than those 3 subpixels meant the trick would not work. And I am still trying to compensate for that in MG1 after the final emerald...
nitsuja wrote:
The above reasons could also be an argument for doing a Tails-only run, except I think Hyper Sonic wins by a landslide as far as TAS potential goes.
Not to mention that you only get the "true" ending and "true" endzone with Hypersonic. But yes, the 'fire shield in any direction' effect is a huge winner: for one, it means a dead stop from any speed in 3 frames (jump, blank, down+jump).
The final snag is how glaring it is when it goes from Nitsuja's & Upthorn's input to my own in a few places :-)
All things considered, I think I will re-start it as a Sonic-only run. But I will leave the WIP until MG1; the stuff after the final emerald is picked up can be disregarded, it was just something I was trying with Supersonic (seeing that different subpixel positions was was desynching the input with regular Sonic).
Personally, I think you should restart and go low-glitch for this run, so you have more of an opportunity to show off Super Sonic (and later Hyper Sonic) and to further differentiate yourself from the current S3&K TAS; SprintGod's S3&K runs were both low-glitch (though his second one did use "zip off the side of the level" a few times) and both were very entertaining.
(Do note I haven't watched either of your WIPs yet, been too busy, so if you're already going low-glitch, disregard this post.)
Personally, I think you should restart and go low-glitch for this run
I have already restarted; and I have been considering about going low glitch, yes, to show off the super/hyper versions. But that requires defining what "low glitch" means exactly. Zipping through whole levels would be an example of something to disallow, but what about the shortcut in Hidrocity 1 where Sonic enters the slope and zips through the wall? That one can easily happen in a normal play-through on an actual console.
Not zipping through Hidrocity 2 has the advantage that I can pick up the last two emeralds there and go Supersonic early in MG1, possibly even picking the speed shoes *as* Supersonic. I wonder how (if) they stack together...
picking the speed shoes *as* Supersonic. I wonder how (if) they stack together...
I didn't do comparisons via memory values or something similar, but I recall that you'll basically get (Sonic + speed shoes) max speed, even as supersonic. So, it doesn't stack. Which, in comparison, will get you slightly higher max speed (?) but much worse acceleration.
I always thought that super sonic was just invincible with speedshoes and a higher jump. but thats with out reading any memory values so I don't really know. (s2 and I'm guessing s3k have a different memory value for speed then s1)
Also, after the first special stage in AI2, I cannot figure out how to go through the floor except after it has finished falling; I would appreciate any pointers.
... It could be that the platform is swapped out for something else (or simply forgets to check collision for a frame)...
I looked into it, and this is exactly what happens. In Nitsuja's run, the code pointer in its SST slot changes on the frame where sonic would come into contact with it.
Unfortunately for marzojr, it's SST slot is dynamically determined based on availability, so I cannot simply give him a RAM address to watch.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Unfortunately for marzojr, it's SST slot is dynamically determined based on availability, so I cannot simply give him a RAM address to watch.
Just my luck. As it turns out, I can go through that sprite every single time when going to the right, but failed to do it on all tries when going to the left. Thus, if I were to skip that special stage, I could take advantage of that.
I am using a self-compiled Gens with S3&K camera + speed hacks (straight from CVS); the information it displays can be used to determine the address to watch? I seem to remember that the Sonic hacks also display the object's base RAM address (or at least that is what the comments in 'SonicHackSuite.cpp' state, but I know how comments can get out of synch with the code...).
Unfortunately for marzojr, it's SST slot is dynamically determined based on availability, so I cannot simply give him a RAM address to watch.
Just my luck. As it turns out, I can go through that sprite every single time when going to the right, but failed to do it on all tries when going to the left. Thus, if I were to skip that special stage, I could take advantage of that.
I am using a self-compiled Gens with S3&K camera + speed hacks (straight from CVS); the information it displays can be used to determine the address to watch? I seem to remember that the Sonic hacks also display the object's base RAM address (or at least that is what the comments in 'SonicHackSuite.cpp' state, but I know how comments can get out of synch with the code...).
When numlock is on, each object's base address in RAM should be displayed at the object's center.
Add FF to the front to use it in ram search.
The code pointer is the 4 byte value right at that base address.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I always thought that super sonic was just invincible with speedshoes and a higher jump. but thats with out reading any memory values so I don't really know. (s2 and I'm guessing s3k have a different memory value for speed then s1)
He is invincible, has a higher jump, double the speed, and has greatly increased acceleration (to the point that he is much harder to control).
It's the acceleration that makes the most difference.
Add FF to the front to use it in ram search.
The code pointer is the 4 byte value right at that base address.
Thanks, that did the trick! Now to finish Angel Island *again*...
satan wrote:
He is invincible, has a higher jump, double the speed, and has greatly increased acceleration (to the point that he is much harder to control).
Not quite double the speed: Supersonic/Hypersonic has a top floor speed of 2560 subpixels/frame versus normal Sonic's 1536 subpixels per frame. Speed shoes double normal Sonic's top speed, so that he is faster than Supersonic/Hypersonic. For more quantitative values of his stats, the Sonic Tricks page is quite handy (but it doesn't list the super/hyper forms with speed shoes).
For more quantitative values of his stats, the Sonic Tricks page is quite handy (but it doesn't list the super/hyper forms with speed shoes).
That's because the one doesn't affect the other. If you transform after you hit speed shoes, you get Super Sonic's normal speed. If you transform before you hit speed shoes, you get normal speed shoe speed.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I have made a new WIP for Sonic only; it is here.
A few comments:
I decided to go more 'low glitch'. Small wall zips, like that in Hidrocity 1 are OK (as I had it happen to me in a real console one too many times with bad results).
Dropping through that platform in Angel Island 2 had its cost: unless I waste the frames I gained there in some way, it is impossible to get to the second ring without hitting that wall. The bottom platform needs to vanish, and it kills my vertical speed.
I spent a great deal of time making Hidrocity 1 and 2. I was using Gavin's run as a model, and made several improvements on it (I even managed to duplicate the wall zip from Nitsuja's run in Hidrocity 1, with a few side effects of not having the subpixel position right); until I realized I was using the *first* run he had made of Sonic only. Several parts of Hidrocity 1 were then remade, based on his second run. I used a few of his tricks to get through slides in Hidrocity 2, but everything else was my own.
I am thinking that getting those two emeralds in Hidrocity 2 just isn't worth the time it takes; after all, there are two giant rings practically on the way in Marble Garden 1.
current run looks great so far, I like that you are going low glitch, shows off the game better :D
I was waiting for someone to do this, I tried many times myself but I could never get it as optimized as this.
To be fair, up to this point I am doing little but building upon high quality optimization by Sprintgod, Nitsuja and Upthorn, with a few things in the middle (going out to get emeralds). Things will get tricky quickly now with Supersonic in the game, as I still have to get used to TASing him.
Hypersonic will be a piece of cake to TAS in comparison given his very special unique ability. And boy, how useful it is for a TAS... I almost want to make an all-Hypersonic TAS from the beginning as a concept demo. The only problem is the constant flashing of the screen that results from it... (no, I am not that far ahead, I was just testing Hypersonic TASing in debug mode; and it was great).
Hello, this is ORKAL. I watched the latest 33:05.78 TAS and noticed I was credited for the Launch Base Zone technique. Thanks for that.
Anyway, I'm redoing the entire glitch series I had on there. Most of the glitches are useless for speedruns, but I did find a faster way to beat Launch Base Zone Act 1. You do the same dying at the end of the act trick, you just get there quicker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRLzXdz6L8 Skip to 0:20.
The fastest I've been able to do it with a normal emulator is 0:41. You could definitely do it faster. If I find anything else that could be useful while doing these videos, I'll be sure to post.
I am thinking that getting those two emeralds in Hidrocity 2 just isn't worth the time it takes; after all, there are two giant rings practically on the way in Marble Garden 1.
Suggestions? Comments?
Going out of your way to get the first big ring in Hydocity 2 did seem a tad slugish when it came to getting back on track, having to jump on those spinning platforms due to loosing your momentum... Not that I am remotly qualified to say if was ultimatly slower or not.
If it means anything I am pretty sure the last attempt at making a 100%run here, unlocked Super Sonic in Marble Garden 1.
WIP until end of Marble Garden 1. Taking only one emerald in Hidrocity 2 was a lot faster indeed; but most of the savings were in Marble Garden 1, where I can grab an emerald at minimal cost (a bit under 2 seconds). It wasn't worth to become Supersonic in this level, though.
I am still planning my route through Marble Garden 2; this being a low glitch run means I have to avoid all of the well-known shortcuts, and will unfortunately have to avoid Knuckles' boss.
WIP until the end of Marble Garden 2
I had an earlier version of it, but decided to polish it a bit as it felt suboptimal at the end. I ended up removing 407 frames from the end, and using the second controller to control Tails at the boss made a huge difference.
Which glitches exactly are you choosing not to use? I'd be a little worried of it winding up in the same situation as this run. The only "glitch categories" that make sense to me here are:
1: anything goes
2: anything goes except for instantly warping from the start of the act to the end of the act
3: no programming errors are allowed to be abused, even if they're easy to do in real-time
Also, those roughly fit in with movie categories we already have.
So far, I have been using some minor wall zips, slope jumping and high-speed collision abuse (such as in Hidrocity 2, where high vertical speed allow me to fall through a slide and take a shortcut); basically because many of those can be done in real-time (but may be tricky). But when you put into categories like that, I'd guess it would be (2). That would mean I could fight Knuckles' boss in Marble Garden 2, which is a plus; and there may be a few other things too. I will go over the run again and see what changes can be done.
I think that fighting sonic boss in mg2 as knuckles would fall under the "instantly warping from the start of the level to the end" since it works under the same premises.
