Variety is the spice of life, and most TASes have to sacrifice variety for speed. Sometimes concession is made to entertainment, but that concession is a few seconds. I do enjoy runs glitched into an unrecognizable puddle and I enjoy runs where you have to keep jumping and kill almost no enemies in order to keep your speed up, but there's got to be more we can do with TASing other than simply going for speed and maximum efficiency.
I therefore propose we create a new category for full-plays. The idea is that player movement is still perfected and efficient, but the movie aims to show off the variety of the game rather than repetitively beating the game to a pulp. Shooters would be a great candidate for this. Players could decide to destroy every enemy possible, switch frequently between weapons to show off different ways to use them, and let bosses loose a few of their impressive attacks before slaughtering them mercilessly. These tool-assisted runs would be about game appreciation and entertainment more than speed.
We've been moving in this direction already with some of the fighting game runs. The enemies don't have a chance to do much, but the player-controlled characters throw out all sorts of bizarre techniques. This full-play run category would be something of an extension of that, then.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
The biggest issue when severely sacrificing speed for entertainment is how to objectively rate one better than another. That really needs to be answered before we can start hosting arbitrary videos.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I don't fully get it... things like this have been suggested before.
Doing stuff unoptimized when it could be optimized is completely unacceptable... it would just be the lack of effort of the TASer. This should not be the limiting factor on entertainment. Generally, the amount of effort put into a TAS equals the amount of enjoyment people get from it.
Arbitrary goals are already accepted, as long as they are clearly defined, and produce an entertaining movie that's unlike a other published movie.
Playarounds are also already accepted, like the fighting games you mentioned, but there are also quite a few other examples.
However, just showing off how the game is like sounds like something that belongs on youtube, not TASvideos.
You don't get it. fruitbane wasn't suggesting doing things unoptimized. He was suggesting a different goal, one that does not put completion time as #1 priority.
That being said, fruitbane basically described a more-or-less generic playaround. The only reason many shooting game TASes still aim for fastest time is that their authors choose to.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
You don't get it. He wasn't suggesting doing things unoptimized. He was suggesting a different goal, one that does not put completion time as #1 priority.
Well, I mentioned all options (I think). We already have a lot of runs where speed isn't the main goal... all 100% runs for instance, but there are also no damage runs, 100% kill runs and so on. So I wouldn't really know what's really being suggested. The secondary, or third objective should probably be speed though in these cases, otherwise it would be unoptimized (which is what I mentioned).
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Baxter:
The issue is he's proposing a run which is: shows off 100% of boss of level 4's moves.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I like Let's Play and the idea of "completionist" runs in general, but I'd hate to see that sort of thing popping up in the workbench. So much of what goes into that kind of a run is subjective, and so few people have any taste. As it is now, the workbench has a very high signal to noise ratio, and inviting arbitrary content would change that for the worse.
Maybe in a few years when we have a new crop of TASers and viewers who are less resistant to change, and probably a lot more LCD. By then, all the emulator movie formats may well have auto-executing Lua scripts that auto-play audio commentaries, so that style of run would be more applicable to what we do here.
edit: grammar
We already have a lot of runs where speed isn't the main goal... all 100% runs for instance, but there are also no damage runs, 100% kill runs and so on.
I think it's incorrect to say that "speed isn't the main goal" with those runs. The speed is still the main goal, but some restrictions are being applied for entertainment purposes. As an example, the Mario64 run which collects all the stars has still speed as its goal: It tries to collect them as fast as is possible.
The only runs where speed is genuinely not the main goal are those fighting games where the goal is to show-off as many "cool moves" and "perfect fighting" as possible. In them speed is genuinely irrelevant.
As for the original post, I remember suggesting in the past a category of "uses the route intended by the game developers". In other words, it doesn't use any (bug-abusing) shortcuts which were not intended by the developers, doesn't abuse glitches to eg. get objects before the developers intended, etc. Also zipping would be prohibited because, while it might go through the level in the same direction as the "legit" route, it does so in a way not intended by the game developers. Even shortcuts which do not abuse any programming bugs, but instead obvious level design oversights (left in the game probably due to lack of testing, or because it would be too difficult for a real player to abuse the design error), would be prohibited because it was not intended by the developers.
Just "playing fast" would still be allowed, though. For example bosses can be killed with superhuman accuracy, ie. faster than any regular human could do, etc. Just because the boss is defeated faster than a human could possibly do doesn't change the route.
This desire is hard to express, but I guess I've seen so many games where jumping is faster than walking, so what happens? The play features the main character hopping all the way to the finish, avoiding most enemies instead of facing them. I'd like to see some TAS videos that are less obnoxious that way. Deliberately walking instead of jumping constantly even though jumping may be a little faster. Being more aggressive in killing enemies instead of simply skipping them all would also have some benefits. They could still be played with impeccable skill, and it doesn't mean you have to never jump and never skip enemies, but as much as I enjoy TASes they do often produce some vary narrow results. I like it when movies are submitted which attach some goals other than speed or set arbitrary restrictions.
We already have a lot of runs where speed isn't the main goal... all 100% runs for instance, but there are also no damage runs, 100% kill runs and so on.
I think it's incorrect to say that "speed isn't the main goal" with those runs. The speed is still the main goal, but some restrictions are being applied for entertainment purposes. As an example, the Mario64 run which collects all the stars has still speed as its goal: It tries to collect them as fast as is possible.
This is just playing with words... you know we both mean the same. There is nothing wrong saying "getting 120 stars is the main goal", and "as fast as possible" the secondary. It might indeed be more clear to call "as fast as possible" the goal, and "get 120 stars" a restriction... but that wasn't the point.
This desire is hard to express, but I guess I've seen so many games where jumping is faster than walking, so what happens? The play features the main character hopping all the way to the finish, avoiding most enemies instead of facing them. I'd like to see some TAS videos that are less obnoxious that way. Deliberately walking instead of jumping constantly even though jumping may be a little faster. Being more aggressive in killing enemies instead of simply skipping them all would also have some benefits. They could still be played with impeccable skill, and it doesn't mean you have to never jump and never skip enemies, but as much as I enjoy TASes they do often produce some vary narrow results. I like it when movies are submitted which attach some goals other than speed or set arbitrary restrictions.
Again, I see nothing really new. I think there is a perfect recent example of this. Read this post and the following discussion. To me it seems that everyone actually agrees with you... although you might find things to be obnoxious sooner than others...
We already have a lot of runs where speed isn't the main goal... all 100% runs for instance, but there are also no damage runs, 100% kill runs and so on.
I think it's incorrect to say that "speed isn't the main goal" with those runs. The speed is still the main goal, but some restrictions are being applied for entertainment purposes. As an example, the Mario64 run which collects all the stars has still speed as its goal: It tries to collect them as fast as is possible.
This is just playing with words... you know we both mean the same. There is nothing wrong saying "getting 120 stars is the main goal", and "as fast as possible" the secondary. It might indeed be more clear to call "as fast as possible" the goal, and "get 120 stars" a restriction... but that wasn't the point.
I was not playing with words. I was contrasting what the original poster wanted with the claim that "we already do that with the 100% runs", which is not the same thing. Even the 100% runs are frame-polished to be as fast as possible, and may often abuse glitches and unintended shortcuts.
There was a category I thought of that I didn't propose here, but I think would be cool (I think I saw some other people propose it here though, after I thought of it). The tool assisted walkthrough.
Basically play through the game perfectly, but in a way that people without tools could emulate. Combine that with subtitles and you have a walkthrough that probably works a lot better than text walkthroughs on gamefaqs, for example.
I'm not sure if this site is the right place for them, but I think they would be cool.
This desire is hard to express, but I guess I've seen so many games where jumping is faster than walking, so what happens? The play features the main character hopping all the way to the finish, avoiding most enemies instead of facing them.
I think stuff like jumping makes it better (if you're going to disallow that then why not also disallow using the run button?), but I would like to see more runs that feature the main character hopping all the way to the finish AND slaughtering all enemies along the way. It's too bad it's hard to define "100% kills" in an objective and non-arbitrary way in most games.
For an example, I suspect there's some definition of 100% ("collects all skills" or something like that) that would make for a (more) entertaining River City Ransom run, considering how much stuff that game has that could make the fights more interesting but is completely ignored because of the time it takes to acquire it. I don't think such a run would need to do things like "waiting around to give enemies a chance to do their attacks" in order to be entertaining.
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Xkeeper wrote:
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Dude, no. It should happen here.
mmbossman wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Maybe you and alden could look into that.
Dude, no. It should happen here.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Dude, no. It should happen here.
The idea of having completely different sections for different types of videos has been presented several times in the past. Never caught enough interest, though.
It seems some (most?) people here are more interested in entertainment-oriented movies than just speed-oriented movies, so I don't think it'd be a bad idea to have this stuff on TASVideos.org. (We still should have the speed-oriented versions, since most TASers here only care about shaving frames on old movies.)
Nach wrote:
The biggest issue when severely sacrificing speed for entertainment is how to objectively rate one better than another.
There is no need to be "objective" about this; just let the majority vote on what they think is the more entertaining one.
---
Example: someone makes a new Turok movie where one could see what's happening and he kills some dinosaurs too; this would appear on the workbench:
Vote: Do you think this one is more entertaining than the currently published movie of this game? (Vote after watching both!)
[] No
[] Yes
[] Meh
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
upthorn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Dude, no. It should happen here.
mmbossman wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.
Maybe you and alden could look into that.
Dude, no. It should happen here.
My main complaint with these arguments is that 1) it has been brought up countless times before, without resolution, and 2) the main proponents of the argument have shown no desire to actually do anything to further their cause except post about how things "should" be. If/when someone submits a walkthrough, we can talk about it then, when we have a concrete example to refer to, instead of bullshit hypotheticals.
The biggest issue when severely sacrificing speed for entertainment is how to objectively rate one better than another.
There is no need to be "objective" about this; just let the majority vote on what they think is the more entertaining one.
While that sounds reasonable in theory, I strongly doubt it will work out. It's going to turn out like rating submissions did. A lot of people gave 9.5/10 points or more in entertainment just because they knew the game by heart and enjoyed it being torn to pieces. The result of this was that there were several submissions with an average of 9.3/10 or something. Too many people just think "awsome" and vote 10/10. Comparing two runs of the same game that are <=20 minutes in length may still be possible, but try that with runs that are longer than an hour.
This desire is hard to express, but I guess I've seen so many games where jumping is faster than walking, so what happens? The play features the main character hopping all the way to the finish, avoiding most enemies instead of facing them.
I think stuff like jumping makes it better (if you're going to disallow that then why not also disallow using the run button?), but I would like to see more runs that feature the main character hopping all the way to the finish AND slaughtering all enemies along the way. It's too bad it's hard to define "100% kills" in an objective and non-arbitrary way in most games.
I think there's a place for the high-speed, jumping is faster run. That's what's done here. I'm not saying we should kill them off or replace them. Rather, this would provide more opportunities for entertaining TASes. This doesn't have to be a case of "A or B". Why not "A and B"?
And yes, in some games, especially those with enemy spawns, 100% can be impossible or otherwise untenable. I think we're all reasonable people and can handle that sort of complexity.
nitsuja wrote:
For an example, I suspect there's some definition of 100% ("collects all skills" or something like that) that would make for a (more) entertaining River City Ransom run, considering how much stuff that game has that could make the fights more interesting but is completely ignored because of the time it takes to acquire it. I don't think such a run would need to do things like "waiting around to give enemies a chance to do their attacks" in order to be entertaining.
I suggested the latter only for games where bosses or opponents have particularly interesting attacks that are either cool to watch or fun to watch the player dodge or simply overpower or otherwise defeat. Take the recent Street Fighter Alpha 3 Cody submission in which Dictator is allowed to do a psycho crusher special and Cody does a taunt just so that the super attack flies through him harmlessly.
But I really would like to see an expanded RCR run that uses more of the powers. I found the current run already featured some insanely amusing abuse of the combat system and I'd love to see more.
Perhaps the solution is more of an "Exhibition" category, as someone else mentioned. Some movies like that show up on here, but the bar is high enough that it's daunting.
I think there's a place for the high-speed, jumping is faster run. That's what's done here. I'm not saying we should kill them off or replace them. Rather, this would provide more opportunities for entertaining TASes. This doesn't have to be a case of "A or B". Why not "A and B"?
Well, if "A" and "B" are almost the same as each other (as the "bunny hopping" example makes me think), then what's the point? In that case the audience for "B" will be very small, and probably nobody will have the motivation to make it in the first place. However...
fruitbane wrote:
Perhaps the solution is more of an "Exhibition" category, as someone else mentioned. Some movies like that show up on here, but the bar is high enough that it's daunting.
I would actually like for such a category to exist (or rather, to see more movies like that). But, if it exists on this site, then I think the bar should be very high, just as it is for other types of runs here. If somebody makes a "playaround" run, it could have a place here, but it had better "play around" as impressively as possible and also offer something significantly different from existing TASes. Whatever it does, if the consensus is that it's surprisingly awesome then I'd say it fits in well enough with the goals of this site to be published.
I realize that there's no objective way to define "playing around as impressively as possible", but I think all that means in practice is that the TASer has a much harder job to do to make sure it's up to the standards of as many people as possible. For example, the TASer would have to be very careful to not cross over from "spends extra time to be entertaining" to "wastes your time". But for the people viewing and judging it, it really doesn't pose much of a problem, since after all, almost every TAS of a new game or category is judged completely subjectively anyway and we're perfectly capable of dealing with that.
Something else I think could have a place somewhere here are "glitchless" runs. Imagine being in an alternate universe where all these bugs didn't exist... for some games, the TASes would still be very entertaining, but we're missing out on them despite being able to produce roughly equivalent TASes. The runner would probably need to make a few semi-arbitrary decisions because "glitchless" can be hard to pin down, but most people probably wouldn't care one way or another as long as the decisions were made and they were followed-through consistently. Again, though, I think the standards for such runs should be very high.
I think part of what you meant is that there should be a section of the site where the bar is much lower, so as to encourage more people to make runs like these so we end up with more variety. But I think that's a completely orthogonal issue to accepting runs that don't aim primarily for speed. (And an issue that's likely to encounter more resistance, since currently the only part of this site that caters to runs with low standards is called "gruefood".)
