Just reading leisurely. Is the strength gain on a level random and you're having trouble manipulating it higher, or is it some set number that happens to be low?
It is part of the whole system. The catch is that different swords provide different STR values. It seems that (Willow's LV + STR value of the sword he equips = total STR). Such numbers are not randomly placed into the game and cannot be manipulated.
http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/nes/willow/weapons.shtml
Okay, I stopped for a moment because I done some research on what Willow would get from Eborsisk using two different swords at LV 11. There is a big difference between using the Kaiser sword and skipping it!
For LV 11, the Kaiser sword puts Willow's STR at 68. After calculating and using the best positioning+techniques possible, the fight lasted 330 frames.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/961961360/kaiser-sword-vs-eborsisk.fcm
And then the Battle sword put's Willow's STR at 30. Because of reduced STR and the way I had to re-calculate positioning and techniques, this fight lasted 514 frames.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1350516666/battle-sword-vs-eborsisk.fcm
For both sample movies, the first 83 frames shows you what stats Willow would have going into Eborsisk while the fight does start on frame # 84. How many frames have we sacrificed here? 514 - 330 = 184.
However, I chose to level-grind after the Tir Asleen events and before I enter Nockmaar based on my progress in the 3rd draft. So, even more frames can be sacrificed. Only TAS techniques would save me from disaster, but I'm not done researching yet! To be safe, I already backed up all my 3rd-draft save states.
I should still have the 1st draft on Microstorage and on that movie, I know I didn't start level-grinding until after I entered Nockmaar castle for the second time. I can make another sample out of that first draft for a different way of level grinding, hoping it'll take fewer frames.
I will resume progress on my 3rd draft sometime later, for now I'm just collecting new information as I see it.
I just came out of Matanda's caves and into Lake Cheef. I still progress from there. As far as the Gold Shield goes, I am not letting go of that. Besides, it appears to be the only shield I use anyway, so the shields are kept very minimal as well.
3rd Draft V3
For a game like this, Willow's ultimate weapon is none other than the Tool-Assisted Sword (TAS)!
Update:
I have reached the Under-Island caves and currently have 1990 ex so that Willow can move up 2 levels after defeating Muzh (2000, 3950). I did a very brief short-term level grind to 1990 ex by using the same "ghost multiplying" method as the 2nd draft, but this time, I used the same screen twice.
However, I am further managing my HP carefully because I have only 2. I'll probably roll back the movie and try to further manage my HP. I did take a handful of damage boosts but now I am having second thoughts because I have nothing to recover HP. I don't even have the Healmace spell!
Once I have finalized this perplexing situation, another 3rd-draft WIP will be uploaded soon. ^_^
Moderator: Quit messing with my posts especially without reason because I don't go around deleting your posts behind your back. Ker-peesh?! 0_o
WOW! An un-fucking-believable update!
Rolling back the movie as far as I could, Willow had 42 HP to his name and it was indeed limited! Remember the part of OmnipotentEntity's discovery of a clear way to get a damage boost from a huge viper? In the under-island caves, I had no choice but to battle this one. They inflict 20 HP of damage so I needed every HP I had since Willow has no healing spells.
And then I discovered a huge breakthrough in the fight against Muzh, using the Battle sword and the Gold shield, of course. I tried better tactics to pin this monster against the wall, this time I chose the left side. From there on, this fight appears to be 28 frames faster than the 2nd draft (which I test to find out), so that is some serious improvement for ya!
Calculation of Muzh's battles from the frame that the room entrance closes to the last sword poke...
2nd draft: 118860 to 119479 -- 619 frames
3rd draft: 88997 to 89588 -- 591 frames
3rd draft V4
A couple of things:
You're using autofire to scroll through text. You're losing on average half a frame on each prompt. (total of about a second thus far on the run. They add up.) If you can find a button other than B which makes the text go autofire one on even frames, the other on odd frames.
The fight with the first boss *looks* improvable, but I haven't actually tried.
There are some paths that you take which don't make sense to me (but it could be my being slightly unfamiliar with the game.)
You shouldn't *need* to swing your sword for randomness, worst comes to worst to a little jig in place (ie, down down down down+left down+right down down down) so you only lose a frame or so and vary where the jig is, preferably you can go back as far as you need until you come to a long diagonal that you can choose several equally speedy paths, and luck manipulate there.
Why did you need to kill that bat in the cave?
And can you explain your rationale for killing two sets of those ghosts?
The Muzh battle looks good though. Very slick :)
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
If you're talking about the bat in the first cave (Matanda), it was part of a short ex. adjustment because it takes 710 ex. to achieve level 4. The bat was worth 10 while Matanda was worth 700. Thought it would make some decent sense.
And can you explain your rationale for killing two sets of those ghosts?
Now come to think about it, not only it was for exp. adjustment but also to ensure Willow was strong enough for a more decent battle against Muzh because of 42 available HP.
You're using autofire to scroll through text. You're losing on average half a frame on each prompt. (total of about a second thus far on the run. They add up.) If you can find a button other than B which makes the text go autofire one on even frames, the other on odd frames.
And yes, I admit that. I thought autofiring would be the same thing as being prompted. If I feel this is backing me up, I'll make sure this gets fixed.
The fight with the first boss *looks* improvable, but I haven't actually tried.
Of course, that is Matanda. And the catch is that I already improved the Matanda confront to go with this 3rd-draft bargain. I don't see any Matanda fight more improvable than this. The one thing that aggravates me is the axe that keeps pushing me back and waste more frames, so manipulation was the key. In the 2nd draft, I chose not to pin Matanda against the left side of that room which was nearby. Here in the 3rd draft, I did. If you can control these bosses and make sure you have them pinned to the nearest wall, of course you're able to score more hits and definitely show more improvement... which is what I did in both battles.
There are some paths that you take which don't make sense to me (but it could be my being slightly unfamiliar with the game.)
I do greatly follow along with the maps posted by Lucid Reverie over at http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/nes/willow/ - so I do picture the path ahead of me everytime I leave one place or get through with a certain event. I've kept track of the pathways I took, though some look perplexing, I always chose the fastest ones that come to mind. I am aware that it is important to conserve time by cutting through most corners/apexes in my route to another area of the game.
Those were a couple of pretty good questions you asked and I thank you for that.
Despite that I saved several thousand frames just by defeating Muzh sooner in the 3rd draft compared to the 2nd draft, I still need to adjust exp. along the way - there are still quite a ton of frames under sacrifice.
Now come to think about it, not only it was for exp. adjustment but also to ensure Willow was strong enough for a more decent battle against Muzh because of 42 available HP.
But your defense was unchanged from the beginning to the end of that. (28)
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Now come to think about it, not only it was for exp. adjustment but also to ensure Willow was strong enough for a more decent battle against Muzh because of 42 available HP.
But your defense was unchanged from the beginning to the end of that. (28)
Yeah, but I wasn't worried about defense. I was worried about surviving! Only the Gold shield would give me a break because if I didn't have it, I would come nowhere near close to taking Muzh out.
And I noticed in your sample movie that you did pick the right coordinates (positioning) to ensure you got the 40 frames saved! I might just halt the 3rd draft project again for a little bit and then revert back toward the Matanda battle (not the very beginning) to give this another try, looking to pull 40. If not, at least 35 but as your sample movie showed, it was positioning that did better than mine.
Hold on a second... 700 + (640 * 2) + 20 = 2000... got it! Okay, no telling how much more I will sacrifice when I adjust Willow's experience but all I need is Matanda himself, two sets of white ghosts, and that stupid giant viper that I couldn't safely get past at the under-island caves, to perfectly equal out 2000 ex. points and face Muzh! From there on, I should have 4000 on a level 6 and I'll be fine with that for majority of the game. Maximum HP on a level 6 is ~132, so as long as I have to go through Thunder mountain and even Eborsisk back at Tir Asleen, it pays not think wasting time. It pays to think survival, knowing you're on a tight limit.
Okay, another update since things continue to puzzle me. I realized that using a healing spell will recover HP and save more frames! Obviously, I will need something to keep Willow in the game if I want to take more damage boosts. And if I ever need more MP, that is when I depend on the Devil Eye sword for striking ghosts. That has now became part of my new strategy. All I can do from here is hope this works just right. ^_^
There are two recovery spells.
Healmace is acquired after (1) talking to a resident in Dew to get the Wood Shield (which I don't need) and then (2) talking with the Chief in the same village. I clearly choose to skip that.
Healball is found in a treasure chest one screen North of the Thunder house along the way to Tir Asleen but won't be there once you've at least defeated Eborsisk.
What I can do is try out the Healball spell and see how frequently I would need to use it. I'll be comparing the number of times I take damage and manipulating random encounters. I'll only skip the spell if I really have to gut this game out with the HP willow has left.
Okay, another update.
I am up to my 6th revision of my 3rd draft. It's supposed to be 6th, but someone once again deleted my post which included my revision 5 link! So I guess i'll post this work-in-progress as my 5th revision. It was up to Bogarda, now Willow has reached the under-island caves.
I was able to conserve some HP after I called the Ocarina back to the Tavern. There was a "mandatory enemy encounter" screen containing the first three sliding crab shells; and they each inflict 20 HP of damage per hit. I had to conserve HP by dodging the first one, taking damage from the second one (glad it didn't push me back), and manipulate the positioning of the 3rd one, where it won't block me and I can safely get through it.
After Willow got out from underwater, there was another mandatory enemy screen with 2 more sliding crab shells. Again, manipulation of their positionings' (is that even a word?) were the only way for me to conserve HP.
The reason I conserve HP cautiously as I make my way toward Muzh is simply because of what I said last time: "I don't have any healing spells on me and I even ignored the first one which was Healmace." I am sure there will be another mandatory enemy screen in the under-island caves which was the exact one I was not able to manipulate. Yep, that huge viper. This one's yellow while omnipotententity demonstrated the ones in green. ^_^
Here is revision 5... [ Link ]
Twice, when you go through a screen with a south exit and a west exit with a wide open space in the middle, you hug the south wall and then the west wall rather than cutting through the center of the screen, why this behavior?
If you would like, I can give that viper a shot and see what happens. No promises though.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
That was part of my overall routes I planned. You might have to visit the RPGClassics Willow Shrine link I posted - as many times as I looked at the maps, that was when I started planning the best routes from one exit to the other. I can guarantee you, it's not just a single screen you have to cut through - it's the whole entire area. Trust me on that. ^_^
As bored as I obviously felt, I played more and got what I needed.
After I studied battling Muzh on levels 3 and 4, Willow was too weak for sword swinging and poking. Yeah, he was able to repel slight damage from Muzh's 7-needle attack, but, still he was too weak and not fast enough to knock a lot of HP off the boss. Don't ask if it's improvable that way because I already tried.
I did a little entertainment effect during the course of battling the ghosts. On frame # 76183 on my latest rev., the screen is lit up when the ghosts are ready to duplicate. I paused the game right on that frame to switch into the Devil Eye sword. It's not glitchy but it's weird when the game does the under-island-cave-to-status-screen transition when it's lit up!
Two screens worth of ghosts raised Willow's ex. to 1980 and then a small blue bat perfectly placed him at level 5 with 2000 ex. Then the Muzh battle included slightly better positioning techniques that saved me 8 more frames!
Now I present revision # 6 -- [ Link ]
More boredom, so that means more Willow as I continue to aim for faster time and better manipulation. I have reached the Thunder lady's house after I picked up the Specter.
Presenting revision # 7: [ Link ]
I show more improvement as I took two nicely manipulated damage boosts from two wizards on the long cursed bridge (after passing the purple cave entrance). From there, I still had plenty of HP while MP was short. At Tir Asleen, I chose to skip an opportunity to rest at the Tir Asleen lodge (northwest corner of the village) so that means I know I saved more frames. All I needed was at least 20 MP to ensure I was able to get back to Tir Asleen after I met with an old lady at Tir Asleen cliff.
I had 12 HP going into fighting through 3 gray monsters which were mandatory enemy encounter screens, and can not be manipulated. And that was where one hit from any of them was a game over. Since there were 2 pink vipers on the same route to the top of Tir Asleen cliff, they inflicted 30 HP of damage per hit! The others were 20, so this was depressing.
Calling Po back to Tir Asleen, I once again skipped the lodging opportunity. That means even more frames saved. Going into Tir Asleen castle, I was once again in need of enough MP to call Fleet after coming out of the Tir Asleen jail cell scene. So I immediately switched into the Devil Eye sword and depended on two zombies to get sufficient MP. As soon as I defeated the 2nd zombie, I went back into holding the Battle sword. Continuing on through the rooms, ignoring Airk to save even more frames, and a quicker battle to defeat Eborsisk.
It's been a good work-in-progress so far. And with these new improvements I came up with, that got me in a better aim for quicker time, I can't complain too much. ^_^
Now presenting: 3rd draft - revision # 8 [ Link ]
I did more with this game as I couldn't sleep last night. I completed it as of this afternoon. The 3rd draft is final, now I prepare documentation again as I get ready to submit. Thanks to all! ^_^
Oh, yeah! Just what I thought. Big improvement on level-grinding! I studied both drafts, beginning with the frame number that I started on and the frame where I left the area:
2nd draft: 79,189 to 107,421
Length: 28,232 frames (7:50)
And even more improvement which saved me more frames which was incredible.
This draft: 181,608 to 200,922
Length: 19,314 frames (5:21)
Difference is now 8,918 frames between the drafts.
I have already made it to Nockmaar castle. I'm not planning on posting another revision based on this type of improvement, but everything else will remain the same.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ok, I finally got around to trying this out. Here's how to beat Muzh without a shield. From this it should be clear that you even could do it without getting hit it you had to. I won't argue with hitting level 5 though. This crude demo is about 350 frames slower than your fight. That's already well enough to make up for gold shield, but with a little optimization it should be much faster. Also, I think the battle is more entertaining this way.
This crude demo is about 350 frames slower than your fight.
No, no, no. In fact, it doesn't seem to be slow at all. You just gave me a reason to plan out a 4th draft in the future! Because it does take several hundred frames to travel a few screens in Matanda's cave and get the Gold shield, compared to fighting Muzh without it. Here, I can get to level 5 but now I don't need the Gold shield. Thank you, AxeMan! ^_^
I know I already cancelled my 3rd draft submissions, but I am not done finalizing this run yet!
This prints Willow's coordinates by him and also shows how many pixels you moved in the last frame. Walking straight the pattern seems to be 1,2,1,1,2. Diagonally it always seems to be 1 in both dirs. If you walk diagonally against a wall then you get 1 every time, slowing you down. I was trying to figure out the pattern when switching between straight and diagonal because this can be exploited in some games. But it seems to use a counter that only counts when moving straight.
