Posted: 6/1/2009 11:38 PM
Post subject: Keith Courage
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
Figured I'd at least start on this one, it's one of the most well known PCE games. Heres a small wip up to the beginning of stage 2: http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip1Sp00ky.zip Early conclusions: The gunhead enemies are extremely useful for damage boosting. In fact they could be used in more places than I showed here. The Areas where you play as Keith are going to be a pain. He's slow, he doesn't have the damage boost tricks he does in the alpha suit, and manipulating enemies to drop coins may be tricky. Also the hitbox on his sword isn't good enough to hit enemies on the way up from a jump, and ground slashes stop your momentum. In my opinion only 2 of the sword upgrades should be collected, the 2 that extend the length of your sword. This will help with coin issues. Hearts do need to be collected at some point. Damage boosting off enemies is really useful. I'm not sure what enemies will be the best source of hearts. The gunhead enemies need quite a few hits to die (and are our main source of damage boost which means often we don't want to kill them). The ninja-robot bomber things might be a better choice. Some later bosses can probably be killed faster if we can attrition them and just trade damage until we win. The final boss has a well known trick where if you jump into his area at the proper angle he is unable to move, making him trivial. Another kind of well known trick involves falling into a spike trap at a certain angle, this will allow you to be able to walk amongst the spikes safely (you cannot jump however, you must fall out of the spike pit to another ledge to escape safely) Things that would be most valuable, in order: 'Fall through floors trick': This would be an awesome find as it would make the Alpha Suit stages extremely fast. I tried having enemies push me through small gaps and such but to no avail. Ways to surpass speed limit: Keith especially would benefit from this as he is really unbearably slow. Coin/Heart manipulation ideas: I'm not 100% sure yet what influences enemies to drop items. Would love to hear any other ideas or see any other WIPs floating around.
Posted: 6/2/2009 2:14 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
nice work, I also did a WIP up to the start of stage 2. http://www.filedropper.com/fuzzerdkeithcourage I'm a bit faster up to the boss but couldn't get the boss to work right. you also end the stage with more health then me. you actually can damage boost in the non-armor levels provided you jump as soon as you land, and you take less damage from it so its quite useful. you can manipulate coins by attacking enemies in the normal levels on different frames, but in the alpha zones the enemy drops seem to depend only on which enemies you've killed. if you're going to buy bolts you should probably buy them in the first level as its cheaper. also hearts seem to round up when you teleport out of a stage.
Posted: 6/2/2009 3:49 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I'm going to rethink the keith stages after watching your wip. I updated my wip, heres a new link: http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip2Sp00ky.zip You had enough time to stop and kill a gunhead and still beat me by 100 frames up to the boss despite me choosing a lot more places to damage boost this time around. 30 of those were in Keith stage. The other 70 were misc things in the alpha zone area. So to clarify, if you take damage during a Keith area and then port over to an Alpha Zone, your health gets rounded up? That would remove me bothering to save health for the alpha zones (up to a point of course)
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:13 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
no, I kind of thought it did but I just tested and it seems it only does that for going to the next stage. I kind of thought damage boosting would be worth it anyway since the enemies do less damage, but for 30 frames it might not be. also I'm not sure about the bullets, but I know the other two enemies do less damage then touching the gunheads themselves. your set of damage boosts may be the best since you get to start the next level with 2 hearts.
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:18 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I still want to try again, the way you handled the moving platforms in Keith stage should be a few frames faster, and I think if I jump over the gunheads without damaging them like you did I won't have to wait for their shots for a few frames for the larger damage boosts. small edit: It doesn't look like bolt bombs are going to be very useful. There are a couple of areas where it would be nice to take out a minor enemy with one but so far I'm more interested in some possible spike exploits to get past long stages quickly. The brave sword can be safely skipped, nothing in stage 2 needs the extra damage, and what it does on the boss is nullified by the time it takes to buy it. We need 600 gold by the stage 3 weapons master to buy the Thunder Sword. We then need 2400 by stage 5 for the Jewel Sword. Stages 3 and 5 'should' be the best ones for collecting hearts during the Alpha Zone, as we just got new weapons. The Alpha Sword Costs 4800 from stage 6 and 9600 from stage 7. Obviously we want to get it during stage 6 if we get it at all. It could prove useful for killing Magician mini bosses and ninja bombers in stage 7. I've been looking around for some maps of the underworld stages with no luck so far.
Posted: 6/3/2009 2:42 AM
(Edited: 6/3/2009 5:49 AM)
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
My latest wip: edit: updated with stage 3 underworld. http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip3Sp00ky.zip Stage1: Keith Area: 2 Frames faster than your wip. I'm pretty sure these 2 frames are from how I killed the one enemy who drops a coin compared to how you killed it. Underworld: 40 frames faster before the boss. Most of this is from manipulating a gunhead to drop a heart and combining both our damage boost methods. Stage 2: Keith Area: it MAY be possible to complete this stage 5 or so frames faster at the cost of 50 coins by taking a hit from the second frog instead of killing him for a coin. I found this to not be worth it as when I do reach the sword master in stage 3 I have exactly 600. Underworld: It's 'theoretically' possible to gain 20 or so frames by finding someplace to damage boost 1 more time before I gain the life max up heart. More power to you if you can do it. I also Max my health here to make stage 3 possible without having to visit Nurse Nancy. The way I handle the platforms before falling to the boss area is actually about 25 frames faster than just choosing to fall down, even though it looks wierd. Stage 3: Keith Area: Did this multiple times. I'm sure this is optimal based on how many coins I entered the stage with. 2 frames could be saved by entering the stage with 50 more coins, which would prevent you from having to kill the short hermit thing right before the sword master's door. Damned if I know where you'd get them from, it took a lot of manipulation to get the coins I do have without wasting frames. Underworld: Completely amazed by how this came out. Every inch of health is used and then at the end, boom heart max up + Spikes glitch shortcut. The end of the boss fight is amusing, The explosion hitbox damages me. I left it in because it looks glitchy and I get the health back anyway. Let me know what you think.
Posted: 6/3/2009 4:59 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
awesome work. how did you manage to manipulate hearts? and how did you turn around after falling? its a shame that platform disappeared just before you were able to jump off it. anyways I found that if you jump over the second half of the lava pit in stage 3 and kill the boulder instead of damage boosting off of it you can save a few frames. this also means you get hit 2 less times. I don't know if its because of the first trick but you can save a few more frames on the cat boost just afterwards. I'm not sure how this would affect the coin manipulation afterwards though. you probably already know this but I just noticed that walking through spikes actually is possible in some circumstances and is helpful at the end of the stage 3 underworld.
Posted: 6/3/2009 5:51 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I actually updated stage 3 underworld in the previous zip file. I'm torn between going back and changing what you mentioned and keeping what I have so far. I don't think I could get stage 3 underworld to come out like that again, and the coins would be a pain. I think I'm going to stick it out but I'll debate it some more before continuing. Updated zip: http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip3Sp00ky.zip For the hearts there are 3 or 4 things that affect it. Whether or not you are jumping/airborne matters, as does what frame you kill the enemy and your current speed. Life max ups are harder to manipulate than plain hearts as well. To turn around while falling you have to make sure that you have no forward momentum when you fall off a cliff, this will allow you to change direction once you fall off. That one platform in stage 2 underworld drove me nuts. if I had 1 more frame I'd be able to catch it but i spent about 3 hours on it and couldn't find the frame I needed. It's based on when you jump into that area and make the last platform appear.
Posted: 6/3/2009 6:04 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
I see, I didn't think it was frame dependent at all because I couldn't get the gunhead that I killed in my wip to give me anything but the bolt upgrade. I probably never hit him with more then a few frames difference though.
Posted: 6/3/2009 6:22 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
There's a pretty big issue looming which is how to raise 2400 coins in the next 2 stages before the weapons master. I don't think skipping the sword upgrade is an option, unless it's going to take us a ton of time to raise the coins. That leaves: Stage 3 rooftop: This seems like the fastest source of 'coin farming'. It would give me an excuse to redo that first section you mentioned. If this ends up being the best choice I'll be redoing the run from the end of stage 1 to damage boost off a missed enemy in stage 2 overworld. Manipulating Gold Cats:Made a mistake here, red coins are only worth 200. This isn't going to work. Stage 3 rooftop is the only choice. The good news is I tried redoing stage 2 while adding extra damage boosts in Keith's area and it made the Underworld area slower. That combined with the coins I gathered (saves frames because I have to kill less cats on the rooftop) means I can just restart at the beginning of stage 3, fix that first lava pit I messed up on, and collect funds. Hopefully I can get another good stage 3 underworld.
Posted: 6/3/2009 7:41 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
theirs a tall pipe you can stand on that gives you gold cats in stage 4. that might work.
Posted: 6/3/2009 8:51 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I ended up using stage 3 for it. I was able to get to 3000 coins in 2144 frames which I think is more than acceptable considering we now never need money again and can damage boost in the overworld all we want. 600 of those went to the thunder sword and of course 2400 are for the Jewel Sword. Now just need to redo my underworld section for stage 3 and we'll be caught up. With money out of the way I don't forsee any issues unless that ninja bomber before the boss refuses to give me a life max up again which will throw a big wrench in the works. Edit: http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip3Sp00ky.zip Here we go. Beginning of Stage 3 Keith's area is much cleaner. 3000 coins collected for both swords we will need, all other overworld enemies will be used for skipping. I gained 10 frames in stage 3 underworld and then got some better boss manipulation gaining even more. I'm working on mapping out stage 4.
Posted: 6/3/2009 2:24 PM
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fruitbane
He/Him
Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
So far this run looks very good. If it's possible, however, better luck manipulation for faster money accrual would make it look a little cleaner.
Posted: 6/3/2009 9:15 PM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I updated the zip file at http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip3Sp00ky.zip Stage 4: Keith Area: No need to collect any money makes this a breeze. Pipes add additional damage boosting. Underworld: Unfortunately this area is more about steady platforming than anything else as there aren't many enemies. I do use a bullet from a gunhead to fall through a very tiny gap saving some time. No idea how to kill this boss any faster than what I did, other than damage attrition which just doesn't work. You sometimes can get an extra hit in per wave but this boss takes 1 heart each time he damages you making the trade not worthwhile. Having 4 hearts at the beginning of the next area is EXTREMELY useful as you will soon see. Regarding coins I went back and tried to play around and see if I could get some better times, but the attempt in the current run was the best I could do. In some cases it took me upwards of 2600 frames to do it even though it seemed faster. Even with manipulation some of the cats just will not drop coins unless you wait 40 + frames to kill them, in those cases often you're better off repositioning yourself or just killing it off as soon as it appears. I kind of have to reiterate just how truly fast the coin gathering is in the current wip, coins ar a huge pain in this game.
Posted: 6/3/2009 10:57 PM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
I think that keiths part of stage 3 could have been done faster, in fact I think you actually went slower then last time on the part I was telling you how to fix <_< (about the same I think, I can still save 4 frames up to the next door.)
Posted: 6/3/2009 11:12 PM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
Can you make a replay? You can use the cheat code to just skip ahead to stage 3 if necessary. the code is hold select + run + 1 +2 at power on then press up 8 times when 'start' appears.' stage select is the first option, change it to 3 for stage 3. edit: Also if its something that happens after the first cat appears it makes no difference, as soon as the first cat appears all you have to do is make sure you get to the second one fast enough to kill it for a coin. edit2: I'm going to do a full complete test run by today or tomorrow, and that will make it easier to analyze/go back to make changes later. It will also give me sufficient motivation to tackle cat manipulation once more if more than 30 seconds overall can be saved from Test -> Real. There isn't much luck manipulation necessary in the last 3 stages, We should only need 2 more life max ups, and possibly only 1.
Posted: 6/4/2009 1:06 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
http://www.filedropper.com/keithcourage I edited it into your movie. by jumping just before getting hit you can probably save a bit of time later in the level too. you actually did this first or I wouldn't have noticed it.
Posted: 6/4/2009 2:36 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I think that's the wrong file, it looks like a copy of my old 1st wip and ends at the end of stage 1.
Posted: 6/4/2009 3:06 AM
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FuzZerd
Player (52)
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 226
Sega TAS of 2011
woops, try this one http://www.filedropper.com/keithcourages3test
Posted: 6/4/2009 7:53 AM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
Zip updated, all stages done. http://www.teamspooky.com/TAS/keithcouragewip3Sp00ky.zip I'll take a peek at your replay tomorrow. Take a look and tell me what you think.