Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
I've just been playing again recently after finding out Darkrai and Shaymin are finally possible to get by glitching on a non-Japanese Copy.
But anyway for TASing this game there are some notable changes:
Using the Japanese Vesion (Early releases before 2007) enables a Surf glitch that can skip the Elite 4 entirely
The bad thing about it is that it ruins the entertainment of how is the TASer is going to get through High Level Pokémon for 5 battles in a row.
Most of Team Galatics' Pokémon are mostly Poison types including:
Crogunk (Poison/Fighting)
Toxicroak (Poison/Fighting)
Zubat Family (Posion/Flying)
There is a forced Legendary Battle like Ruby/Sapphire (Dialga or Palkia)
Palkia has less resistance and weaknesses than Dialga but get STAB from Surf, an reliable Dragon type attack called Spacial Rend (replace it with Dragon Pulse later on for PP purposes at Victory Road)
Dialga is slower than Palkia but has way more resistance and 1 more weakness. Sadly its signature move isn't as reliable as Palkia (because it requires a turn loss after using it).
I played the game as Piplup and during levels 16-23 (as Prinplup) it took a long time to defeat the foe's Pokémon in battle because it its limited level-up movepool (Bubble, Pound, Peck and Bide/Metal Clow)
You can get a Machop at level 6 north of Oreburgh City (the first Gym city too). But remember it's not just IVs to manipulate it's his ability as well because the Machop family has got a new (and unique) ability called: No-Guard which makes any attack (not counting 1 Hit Ko moves like Horn Drill) 100% accurate.
An Guts rush like the Sapphire TAS would work well but will need to know some good TMs to counter many Poison types from the many Team Glactic Battles.
Quick Claw can be found a Jubilife City (But I can't remember if you can get it immediately or get it way later).
Turtwig is the slowest starter so they are likely to attack last, the evolutions are intersting though since at Lv32 they can evolve into Torterra which are then Grass/Ground and learn Earthquake )to make it even deadly). They can also learn Rock Slide from a TM in the Snowy Mountain part of the game (during Mt.Coronet for the final showdown).
Chimchar is the fastest of the 3 but since they are Fire types they will have a problem getting past the first Gym. Luckily they can learn Ember at level 7 which is a special attack which should deal at least some damage with a critical hit against: Geodude, Onix and Cranidos poor Special Defence. The only backfire is that the AI is much meaner and uses potions to heal Pokémon as early as the first Gym.
I've just been playing again recently after finding out Darkrai and Shaymin are finally possible to get by glitching on a non-Japanese Copy.
(O_O) Please tell me how it works!!!!
And in regards to TASing, maybe players should also take into account what gender they pick, because the one they didn't pick will be in the game was a sort of rival and he/she might have different speeches.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
N. Harmonik wrote:
GreenaLink wrote:
I've just been playing again recently after finding out Darkrai and Shaymin are finally possible to get by glitching on a non-Japanese Copy.
(O_O) Please tell me how it works!!!!
And in regards to TASing, maybe players should also take into account what gender they pick, because the one they didn't pick will be in the game was a sort of rival and he/she might have different speeches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEWUM7VcRbY
My instruction video on how to get Darkrai.
It requires tweaking so it's a difficult trick to pull off.
EDIT1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGv43pmLzoI
My instruction video on how to get Shaymin
Again it requires tweaking so it's a difficult trick to pull off.
Both of these are very risky if you mess it up.
EDIT end
A player may start with Chimchar (and nickname it with 1 letter) because the rivals never nickname their starters & have less letters (Turtwig & Piplup).
The players' default names are Lucas and Dawn. So staring as a boy should face less text on Dawn.
Possible words:
His vs Her
He vs She (A boy would wait a few more frames for She)
Him vs Her (odd how "Her" can be used for 2 uses really).
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsP0Vf74I6E
Few notes:
Although it's a Darkra/Shaymin glitch video all you need to just after you use surf is to go left or right and go up (around 100-200 steps I think) until you are in the Hall of Fame room.
Remember this glitch only works on the Early Japanese copies
Although I did get comments mainly from my Shaymin tweaking glitch video (the real one) that some people managed to trigger the Hall of Fame and completing the game.
One Youtuber has managed to take notes of the directions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvfBRut0bc
Here are the steps I took to get here:
Entered the Void:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRHx4...
1 Step South
5 Steps East
430 Steps North
Saved and Soft Reset
65,400 Steps West
64,840 Steps North to Newmoon Island
Then from there I just went all around fake-Sinnoh. And if I recall correctly, this happened at the northeastern edge of Route 215, right before Vilestone City.
Special thanks to the Void Explorers of:
http://halloforigin.proboards.com/http://halloforigin.netii.net/
I hope we can perfect this glitch. If anyone watching would like to try it, it should be pretty safe as long as you DONT save in fake-Sinnoh. However, if Cynthia saves for you, then you're good to go! ^^ Please comment on what you find if you do try this!
If someone used this as a TAS it would easily get rejected mainly because the glitch itself is nearly 2 hours in the void (and it's not entertaining at all).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsP0Vf74I6E
Few notes:
Although it's a Darkra/Shaymin glitch video all you need to just after you use surf is to go left or right and go up (around 100-200 steps I think) until you are in the Hall of Fame room.
Remember this glitch only works on the Early Japanese copies
Although I did get comments mainly from my Shaymin tweaking glitch video (the real one) that some people managed to trigger the Hall of Fame and completing the game.
One Youtuber has managed to take notes of the directions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvfBRut0bc
Here are the steps I took to get here:
Entered the Void:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRHx4...
1 Step South
5 Steps East
430 Steps North
Saved and Soft Reset
65,400 Steps West
64,840 Steps North to Newmoon Island
Then from there I just went all around fake-Sinnoh. And if I recall correctly, this happened at the northeastern edge of Route 215, right before Vilestone City.
Special thanks to the Void Explorers of:
http://halloforigin.proboards.com/http://halloforigin.netii.net/
I hope we can perfect this glitch. If anyone watching would like to try it, it should be pretty safe as long as you DONT save in fake-Sinnoh. However, if Cynthia saves for you, then you're good to go! ^^ Please comment on what you find if you do try this!
If someone used this as a TAS it would easily get rejected mainly because the glitch itself is nearly 2 hours in the void (and it's not entertaining at all).
I also looked this up on Google and it seems that they have a tutorial of the glitch on GameFAQ's.
Does tweaking lead to any significant sequence breaks? I realize the hours it takes to perform would probably outweigh any skips, but it would still be interesting to know.
Anyways, I've been thinking about what one would do in a TAS of this game. One option is manipulating a Lucky Egg from a Chansey. The 1.5x experience boost would put your starter's level into the 60s by the time you reached the E4, making Dialga/Palkia probably unnecessary. Guts Machop needs Quick Claw, so it can't use this strategy. This makes Diamond>Pearl, as Dialga's typing allows for a OHKO with Close Combat from Infernape or EQ from Torterra.
I think it is possible to run from Dialga/Palkia, if you're not going to capture it or are unable to OHKO then it might be worth considering for time saving purposes (unless you badly need the exp or something).
Bear in mind that the IVs/natures are generated with the same PID methods used in the GBA games, it is possible to get the IVs that you want on a specific frame each time. However there are more factors involved, mainly reliance on the DS's internal clock. It is much harder to pinpoint, since unlike Emerald where the games always give the same IV/nature at a specific frame every time after resetting, there is no such common reference point to rely on. However, if you're aiming to get high IVs for a starter, Machoke or Dialga/Palkia (depending on which you choose to use), it is somewhat easier than it might first appear.
If you want more info this is a good resource to explain better what I'm referring to: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45097
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
Anyways, I've been thinking about what one would do in a TAS of this game. One option is manipulating a Lucky Egg from a Chansey. The 1.5x experience boost would put your starter's level into the 60s by the time you reached the E4, making Dialga/Palkia probably unnecessary. Guts Machop needs Quick Claw, so it can't use this strategy. This makes Diamond>Pearl, as Dialga's typing allows for a OHKO with Close Combat from Infernape or EQ from Torterra.
Infernape would have better benefit with the Lucky Egg thanks to its amazing base speed stat (doesn't need to rely on Quick Claw)
Piplup Tactics
If players had Piplup as a starter and used Machop/Machoke as the Guts Sweeper then there's some pros and cons.
* A Quick Claw can be found in Jubilife City
* Machop can be caught before the first gym and will need to walk to Eterna Forest and face a Wild Level 10 Bedew that should know Stun Spore.
* Facade is found in Solaceon Town (Great for Guts sweeping)
Piplup's Rival Starter would be Turtwig -> Torterra. The weight of Torterra should make Low Kick's base power a whooping 120. Hopefully a good Critical hit should OHKO Torterra even with his massive HP & Defence.
Another pro is that Piplup can be an HM Slave if a player is making a TAS on PKMN Diamond. Dialga cannot learn Surf & Waterfall.
Piplup is mainly a Special Sweeper that could take down Onix pretty easily but the base power of its moves (Bubble) is an absolute joke that it can learn a good attack (Bubblebeam) at:
Level 22 As Piplup or
Level 24 As Prinplup.
Machop's Location details.
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/location/066.shtml#diamond
If Piplup had a good Speed IV and the Lucky egg, then it could increase levels even faster and learn powerful moves like Brine (some use in Double Battles) and Hydro Pump.
Chimchar tactics
For Chimchar it would need to know Rock Smash to get past the first Gym easily but the variety of powerful moves like Close Combat and Flare Blitz makes this one a deadly sweeper.
It can learn Flamethrower from a TM which will be useful against many Bronzor and Brozongs. I couldn't remember if the Dept.Store is blocked in Veilstone city but you can buy TMs for Focus Blast and Fire Blast.
If the starter is going to be used from start to finish then the Lucky egg can be used to reach an even higher level.
Some good partner PKMN for double battlesBefore Veilstone City visit against Team Galactic.http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/sinnoh/route215.shtml
Ponyta (the only Fire Type Family other than Chimchar's Family to be in the DP Sinnoh Dex, can use Ember to deal damage against Bronzor/Bronzongs).
Kadabra (a good special sweeper that knows Confusion).
Before Spear Pillar
Mt.Coronet 2F
Clefairy (Knows Gravity, upsets Flying & Levitating PKMN like Bronzor & Golbat).
But this double battle uses Barry as your Partner and his first PKMN is Munchlax then Staraptor and Heracross.
The other 3 are 2 type replacements and a Starter of the player's disadvantage which includes:
Floatzel, Rapidash, Roserade
Empoleon, Infernape, Torterra.
If only the Super Rod was obtained before the Elite 4 it's possible to capture a level 55 Gyarados.
Bear in mind that the IVs/natures are generated with the same PID methods used in the GBA games, it is possible to get the IVs that you want on a specific frame each time. However there are more factors involved, mainly reliance on the DS's internal clock. It is much harder to pinpoint, since unlike Emerald where the games always give the same IV/nature at a specific frame every time after resetting, there is no such common reference point to rely on. However, if you're aiming to get high IVs for a starter, Machoke or Dialga/Palkia (depending on which you choose to use), it is somewhat easier than it might first appear.
If you want more info this is a good resource to explain better what I'm referring to: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45097
Yes, I was thinking about this. It actually presents an annoying problem. We'll need to make sure that when the DSm starts, the internal clock is always at the same time to make sure the seed is the same. Of course, it also presents another rather interesting problem: we can choose the initial seed for the RNG this way, and a good seed choice could greatly reduce the necessary RNG manipulation.
EDIT: Also, I'm wondering what we should do about names. Letting the game assign you a name (by just pressing OK when it brings up name entry) saves 20 frames over not doing so, but you lose frames every time your name comes up. Since as far as I can tell, the shortest default name is "Ash", you lose 2 frames per appearance. So 10 appearances and the two are tied. More and a single letter name wins, less and the default Ash wins.
As for the rival's name, you lose a lot more by not choosing a default name. Namely, 165 frames. However, since the best default name (Barry) is 5 letters long, we lose 4 frames for every appearance. So if it appears 41 times or more, a new name is better. If it appears 40 times or fewer, a default name is better.
EDIT2: You and your rival's names each show up about 20 times before you even leave sandgem town. So yeah, single letter names for both. Same goes for Chimchar/Machop.
Of course, that brings up the question of what to name them. Naming the protagonist I is always fun, but any single letter is equally good. Perhaps they could be named T, A, and S.
Also, of the Pokemon you mentioned, Kadabra might be a good catch. Teleport could be very useful, and its high speed, satk, and STAB psychic moves would be good against galactic's poison types.
This might be obvious but you might want to set the time of this game to be during the day because in the morning, Joggers will challenge you and at night, Officers will challenge you.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
After testing it, we're definitely going to need to save the DS Clock settings into the movie file somehow, as as it stands, it's not deterministic.
So, instead, I give you a TAS up to the point where you get your starter, the first random event in the game. Hooray for menu manipulation!
http://files.filefront.com/DiamondTAStestdsm/;13763119;/fileinfo.html
Looks like until the clock problem is fixed, we're stuck to route planning.
I realize double posting is frowned upon, but I figured this was notable enough to warrant a new post.
I have found the PRNG in memory, thanks to the helpful data provided at Smogon. Its current value is stored as a long integer in address 021C4D48. The actual output of the RNG is the highest 4 digits of the value in that address.
The RNG advances through the following method. If seed is the value in 021C4D48, then...
new seed=(41C64E6D*seed+6073) mod 100000000
Where all values are, of course, in hex. This RNG is used, at the very least, for Pokemon creation. It may also be used for battles, though I'll have to check that.
so how is the original seed decided?, and if it generates based on clock signals and works from there. It's gonna be a long wait to get something like a lucky egg (some 1 in 1000 or so event) from a chansey. as there are about 4 billion generations to go through. also you may need two numbers to generate as i beleive thats how Pokemon id's, natures and items held are determined. thats a lot of manipulation
so how is the original seed decided?, and if it generates based on clock signals and works from there. It's gonna be a long wait to get something like a lucky egg (some 1 in 1000 or so event) from a chansey. as there are about 4 billion generations to go through. also you may need two numbers to generate as i beleive thats how Pokemon id's, natures and items held are determined. thats a lot of manipulation
The RNG is seeded off the DS clock (it's a bit complicated how, but it's entirely known). It advances by 1 every time you step in tall grass, 1 time every time a wandering NPC moves, and 7-8 times for each wild battle. Not sure about trainer battles, though. Strangely enough, it seems to advance every frame during battles, but then rewinds itself to the proper location at the end of battle. See the Smogon article linked above for more.
Lucky Egg and Chansey are 1/20 each, so it's 1/400 to get both. Worst-case scenario, we save and quit to reseed the RNG.
if it advances every step in tall grass, asuming it is that random number that is used to determin wheather or not you get attacked, then how would you walk through grass without being attacked. thx also
If there are wandering NPCs in the area, you can let them advance the RNG. If there aren't...well, there is the option of opening the journal to advance the RNG, but if too many advances are needed, it's probably best to just take the battle. Ideally, if such a battle is forced, we can make it be against a pokemon we need to catch anyways.
Which reminds me. Bidoof and starly should be caught early on. This gives us Cut, Rock Smash, and Fly. Later, Chansey will fill in Strength and Rock Climb, and *insert water type here* will handle Surf and Waterfall. Chimchar probably should not be taught Rock Smash. It takes up a moveslot, and crit Blaze Embers should take out Roark's pokemon just find.
As for what kind of Chimchar to get, I think a 31 across-the-board Rash Chimchar is best. Most worrisome early-game attacks are physical, and we definitely need all the special attack we can get for Roark. 31 IVs are for durability, speed, and power, which we need all of. Unfortunately, this is impossible, but it is possible with a 28 IV in sdef, which should suffice.
So, now we just need to work out the start time which will seed the RNG properly so that Chimchar comes out 31/31/31/31/31/28 Rash.
we could use bibarel, and he can also be slightly useful at first in double battles, if its about lvl 20-25. and that can use a host of HM,s i think we'll also need to make a random encounter for a starly for fly, though the more i think about it an abra which you can catch just outside the rock gym may actually be good enough, abra's teleport will be useful anyway i'd immagine.
Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is, there are exactly 59 calls to the RNG between the generation of your ID and secret ID and the generation of Chimchar. Since the RNG is an invertible function, I can figure out what number needs to be in the RNG after the said events needs to be. FYI, it needs to be 8E074B90
The bad news is that the ID and Secret ID generation don't use the normal RNG method. This complicates things. Also, there are a limited number of initial seeds available. So, we'll have to see what the best we can do is.
well, we don't need chimchar to be perfect, just good enough that it has the right nature and the moderate iv values, i don;t think gender ever matters as attrackt and breading shouldn't be an issue or even happen..
a plus attack nature is probably most useful and minus special defence/defence.
Back on the subject of choosing a gender: I'd like to know for certain whose speeches are shorter. Lucas's at least sound shorter, and I find him a lot more entertaining.
Also on route planning, I take it Chimchar wouldn't be stopping at the Trainer School for the 192 exp and TM10?
we have to stop at the trainer school to give the rival the package. Otherwise, though, no. Fighting only required trainers, your Monferno is level 23 after Gardenia, which is pretty good. TM10 is kind of useless. Aside from the difficulty of getting correct hidden powers off this, Grass Knot seems like a far better coverage move.
I don't know if this is correct, but I think that the use of the bicycle can be made quicker by starting in low gear then switching to high gear. It seems like low gear is faster for a few frames and then high gear is faster after that.
Well, my use of Hidden Power was in an unassisted single-segment run (no spare game available), so I could use HP Fighting to beat Roark. It would've ideally been Grass so I could super-effect Piplup as well, but either way it was just to get through the beginning faster until I could get better moves.
So, it will be fun seeing Roark get beaten by a Lv9 Chimchar.
Oh, and my old calculations show Monferno at Lv22 after Gardenia. Here, I used this.
