I'm not sure if someone has suggested this before, but I think encoding the TAS Videos to lossless x264 is quite possible. Since video games are using constant sprites, the changes between frames are minimal and the amount of bits needed to capture motion is quite small. For example, my lossless encode of the latest Rockman 2 is only 33 MBs (video only and somewhat a cheat since keyframe interval was set to 99999) (great job by Timo Taipaleenmäki btw). The posted video in turn is 52 MB with audio.
The reason why lossless is so much smaller is because lossy adds artifacts in which require more bits to capture the differences between frames. Since lossless is, well, lossless, the differences between frames is smaller since it is just a constant sprite moving around.
So what do you guys think?
Notes:
- In order to play lossess x264, you need a newer version of ffdshow (after Jan, 2009)
- YouTube does not currently support lossless x264. Their decoder seem to be outdated.
PS: I can host the Rockman 2 encode somewhere if you guys want
Double Dragon 2: size: 19 MB, length: 10:33
By comparison, most of the 10:30 minute NES videos I encode, upscaled to 320x240 (still lossless), are about 50MB.
I really don't think using lossless x264 for "shorter" (under an hour? 30m?) movies is a bad idea, given the comparisons.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
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You can still get visually lossless without using lossless mode though. Some of my encodes aside from the intro logo are virtually indistinguishable from lossless mode.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Double Dragon 2: size: 19 MB, length: 10:33
By comparison, most of the 10:30 minute NES videos I encode, upscaled to 320x240 (still lossless), are about 50MB.
I really don't think using lossless x264 for "shorter" (under an hour? 30m?) movies is a bad idea, given the comparisons.
When I did lossless for Double Dragon 2, the size I got (video only) was 12.7 MB. Maybe it's the settings I use? Again I can post the file if you would like.
Nach wrote:
You can still get visually lossless without using lossless mode though. Some of my encodes aside from the intro logo are virtually indistinguishable from lossless mode.
The point I was making is that lossless mode actually create smaller files than lossy when lossy is encoded to the point that it looks visually lossless.
My observation maybe only applies to NES games. I just tried SNES Zelda and got a bigger encode than the posted video.
By comparison, most of the 10:30 minute NES videos I encode, upscaled to 320x240 (still lossless), are about 50MB.
When I did lossless for Double Dragon 2, the size I got (video only) was 12.7 MB. Maybe it's the settings I use? Again I can post the file if you would like.
Look closer. Bolded the important thing in my comparison.
Then again, mine have audio included too and it probably isn't encoded very well...
When I did lossless for Double Dragon 2, the size I got (video only) was 12.7 MB. Maybe it's the settings I use? Again I can post the file if you would like.
Actually, your commandline would be more interesting to see.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
By comparison, most of the 10:30 minute NES videos I encode, upscaled to 320x240 (still lossless), are about 50MB.
When I did lossless for Double Dragon 2, the size I got (video only) was 12.7 MB. Maybe it's the settings I use? Again I can post the file if you would like.
Look closer. Bolded the important thing in my comparison.
Then again, mine have audio included too and it probably isn't encoded very well...
Yep when I resize to 320x240 using Lanczos4Resize (there is a ton of ringing), the file size skyrocketed. Why are you resizing? It adds ringing artifacts (depending on the resizer) and you can make the DAR 4:3 easily with just a flag in the MKV container. Also if you have the lossless source (minus the colorspace conversion which isn't lossless) you can resize if you need to later. I don't see a point to the resize.
moozooh wrote:
Aktanusa wrote:
When I did lossless for Double Dragon 2, the size I got (video only) was 12.7 MB. Maybe it's the settings I use? Again I can post the file if you would like.
Actually, your commandline would be more interesting to see.
I redid my Double Dragon 2 video with a more sensible keyframe interval and got a file size of 13.5 MB. Here is my commandline as given by MeGUI (close enough):
program --qp 0 --keyint 601 --min-keyint 0 --ref 16 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --bframes 16 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --direct auto --nf --subme 9 --trellis 2 --partitions all --8x8dct --me tesa --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input"
Mind you b-frames aren't really used in lossless mode as they don't make sense. Those b-frame settings are actually ignored by x264. Also I'm using build 1139 of x264 which is quite recent.
I've noticed for SNES Zelda:LttP that the fades are eating up a lot of bits causing my file to be big. So lossless encoding "may" work for SNES too as long as there are not many fades.
vba-rr encoded 15154 frames of gia-pokemonyellow, which I then encoded to ffdshow h264 lossless, ZMBV codec from dosbox, and used 7-Zip at max settings on the .wav
h.264 Lossless YV12: 2.4MB
ZMBV 16-bit RGB: 991KB
uncompressed audio: 42MB
wav in a .7z: 857KB
to get ZMBV to accept 24-bit video, make VirtualDub change the Colour Depth to 16-bit RGB (555) or 32-bit RGB.
my 7-Zip 7z settings: first set Compression level to Ultra then change Word size to 273
using 7-Zip compresses the ZMBV even further:
16-bit ZMBV: 991K
32-bit ZMBV: 1487K
16-bit ZMBV.7z: 450K
32-bit ZMBV.7z: 794K
I wish that slider thing in ZMBV codec config would do something...
vba-rr encoded 15154 frames of gia-pokemonyellow, which I then encoded to ffdshow h264 lossless, ZMBV codec from dosbox, and used 7-Zip at max settings on the .wav
h.264 Lossless YV12: 2.4MB
ZMBV 16-bit RGB: 991KB
uncompressed audio: 42MB
wav in a .7z: 857KB
to get ZMBV to accept 24-bit video, make VirtualDub change the Colour Depth to 16-bit RGB (555) or 32-bit RGB.
my 7-Zip 7z settings: first set Compression level to Ultra then change Word size to 273
using 7-Zip compresses the ZMBV even further:
16-bit ZMBV: 991K
32-bit ZMBV: 1487K
16-bit ZMBV.7z: 450K
32-bit ZMBV.7z: 794K
I wish that slider thing in ZMBV codec config would do something...
Using the settings I posted in the previous post, I get a file size of 848 KB (video only) for Pokemon Yellow =). Of course since x264 is in YV12 colorspace, it can't compare to the RGB version of ZMBV.
Edit: Well I found out the that VBA doesn't like recording AVIs in turbo speed as frames get dropped. So I reencoded Pokemon Yellow again this time w/o the missing frames and the file size jumped to 1.07 MB
Pokemon Yellow with FLAC audio (the file is mostly audio!)
http://www.MegaShare.com/811134
Note: If it doesn't decode correctly you need to update to a newer version of ffdshow (Windows only)
Yeah... no, thanks.
Besides: Rockman 2 != Mega Man 2
Is it because the file is too big? I thought there may be complaints on that, so I can reupload w/o the huge lossless audio.
This is a video of this http://tasvideos.org/2162S.html which is Rockman 2. I could of sworn MM2 is just the renamed of Japanese version of Rockman 2 + adding an easy mode.
Double Dragon II with FLAC audio:
http://www.MegaShare.com/813560
It seems people are having trouble, so I will upload to MediaFire, but before I do, should I get rid of the lossless FLAC audio?
Yes, it is Rockman 2. Still, you used the American ROM, which is not how it's supposed to be ;)
Other than that, have you actually watched the published encode of said submission? I for one don't see any real difference (yeah, the subtitles create some artifacts, whatever) between those two. I guess the sound might be a different issue: again, I don't hear any difference at all. Maybe somebody with better trained ears can comment on that.
And just another overall notice: Those encodes sure might be great for quality junkies, but they might get themselves the emulator and ROM themselves if they strive for superb visual and acoustic perfection. For actual publication, those encodes clearly violate the premise of small filesize. I don't mean to crush your work by that, I'm just saying. If you want to help out by encoding unpublished runs for the masses, then be my guest (adelikat might have a different opinion on that...).
Yes, it is Rockman 2. Still, you used the American ROM, which is not how it's supposed to be ;)
Other than that, have you actually watched the published encode of said submission? I for one don't see any real difference (yeah, the subtitles create some artifacts, whatever) between those two. I guess the sound might be a different issue: again, I don't hear any difference at all. Maybe somebody with better trained ears can comment on that.
And just another overall notice: Those encodes sure might be great for quality junkies, but they might get themselves the emulator and ROM themselves if they strive for superb visual and acoustic perfection. For actual publication, those encodes clearly violate the premise of small filesize. I don't mean to crush your work by that, I'm just saying. If you want to help out by encoding unpublished runs for the masses, then be my guest (adelikat might have a different opinion on that...).
That's the thing, I didn't use the American ROM. I used a translated ROM from Rockman 2 to add english ;).
The point of this topic was, I can make it lossless and it is SMALLER than the submission. I repeat SMALLER. The only reason why it is huge now is becuase of the audio. If you want I can post the file where it is lossless and with the same audio as the submission. It will be SMALLER.
find out what compression you get after putting flac in a zip file.
24/04/2009 10:37 PM 44,523,464 gia-pkmnyellow.wav
24/04/2009 10:37 PM 10,570,987 gia-pkmnyellow.flac
26/04/2009 12:37 AM 1,932,260 gia-pkmnyellow.flac.7z
26/04/2009 01:36 AM 2,410,809 gia-pkmnyellow.flac.zip
find out what compression you get after putting flac in a zip file.
24/04/2009 10:37 PM 44,523,464 gia-pkmnyellow.wav
24/04/2009 10:37 PM 10,570,987 gia-pkmnyellow.flac
26/04/2009 12:37 AM 1,932,260 gia-pkmnyellow.flac.7z
26/04/2009 01:36 AM 2,410,809 gia-pkmnyellow.flac.zip
Yea, I know wav compression got a bit to go, might be something to do with seeking that makes it hard to compress... who knows
I do, should I get rid of the lossless FLAC audio?
Are you using the lossless setting from an orginal capture videos or directly from this site? Maybe it would be better for the sound if your try some "hard" test.
Aktanusa wrote:
- YouTube does not currently support lossless x264. Their decoder seem to be outdated.
Does .FLV format support lossless setting? If that so, I would to see how fast a videos could be loaded on some flash player!
I do, should I get rid of the lossless FLAC audio?
Are you using the lossless setting from an orginal capture videos or directly from this site? Maybe it would be better for the sound if your try some "hard" test.
It's from an original capture. I'm not sure what you mean by a "hard" test.
BadPotato wrote:
Aktanusa wrote:
- YouTube does not currently support lossless x264. Their decoder seem to be outdated.
Does .FLV format support lossless setting? If that so, I would to see how fast a videos could be loaded on some flash player!
Since FLV is just a container, I would think it does support it. The real question is more like if Adobe's Flash Player can play lossless H.264. Though of course if you use something like MPC's FLV splitter, then ffdshow can decode it fine.
