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Posted: 12/26/2004 6:32 PM
Post subject: NES overclocking guide
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/25/237255&tid=222&tid=10
Posted: 12/26/2004 7:56 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
nice :D
Posted: 12/26/2004 11:02 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Wow! :D I wanna overclock both my NES and MegaDrive now!! :D
Posted: 12/26/2004 11:19 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Wow. Overclock your NES and beat world records because there's no lag in sprite-intensive scenes!
Posted: 12/26/2004 11:23 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
It can be useful in SMB1 ;)
Posted: 12/27/2004 1:34 AM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Omega wrote:
Wow. Overclock your NES and beat world records because there's no lag in sprite-intensive scenes!
Woulden't that be concidering cheating, or sort of? Since hardly no one uses clocked CPU's in their consoles. I thought that everybody played on equal basis? How ever I'd like to see Metroid and stuff like that without lags. Would be much more enjoyable. Would be nice to have a CPU setting which you can modify in upcoming emulators. Since those CPU's are emulated at a low clock frequency right?
Posted: 12/27/2004 6:57 PM
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air__devil
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 162
I saw this originally in /. I was so impressed. Anybody going to tackle it?
Love, Ev
Posted: 12/27/2004 7:53 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Evidently, this is not tolerated here. It's CHEATING.
Posted: 12/27/2004 8:42 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Phil's right. Modding your NES means you're not playing it on the original hardware in its original state, meaning it would not be a genuine world record. :p
Posted: 12/28/2004 6:25 PM
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Locke
Joined: 3/29/2004
Posts: 224
But this site isn't about world records. True, getting rid of those slowdowns would be an unfair advantage, but so are savestates and slow-motion. I think it would be much more entertaining to see the end of the metroid 1-item run at faster than 5% speed. (exaggerated I know, but meh)
Posted: 12/28/2004 6:38 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Trying to deal with lags in timeattack is clever. Only LOSER will use this cheat.
Posted: 12/28/2004 7:08 PM
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LocalH
Joined: 10/3/2004
Posts: 138
I feel that such a mod should be usable for legit records, including TG - but in a separate class from stock NES runs. Obviously people using an overclocked system would have a definite advantage, but other than that, in 99% of cases, it doesn't modify the actual gameplay, only the amount of lagged frames, so it's not like using a Game Genie code to cheat and do things outside the original parameters. It would be useful to determine the actual best possible speed while taking lag out of the situation. I don't see this happening, though, because I bet people in the legit speedrun scene will have a kneejerk reaction, similar to the initial reaction to TAS runs, and call it 'faking' and 'cheating' and 'made up' (hell, I'm even seeing a bit of that here now, although it's much less pervasive). Besides, using Famtasia over FCEU is sort of like this, because FCEU seems to emulate the lag accurately, while Famtasia doesn't - I tried converting an SMB1 tricks FMV to FCM, and it played properly up until 3-1 when FCEU lags during the acrobatics near the powerup brick, then Mario just jumps into the side of the next pipe and soon gets killed by a Goomba. But the use of Famtasia is practical for other reasons and thus is accepted here, despite this 'feature'. So technically, using Famtasia is equivalent to using an overclocked NES, when it comes to the end result. Also, this is really currently moot for TAS runs, since they're not done with hardware. Only when emulators have settings to overclock the CPU core, will it become an issue (and in that case, I'd recommend that the emulators should store the clock speed used within the controller movie, to prevent the invalidation of that particular emulator as qualified for TAS runs).
Sonic Retro
Posted: 12/28/2004 8:56 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
For SMB1, try adding 2 frames at the start of the movie and there should be no problem watching in FCEU. I don't know very much about emulation but I don't think Famtasia emulates games faster by having a superior clock speed.
Posted: 12/28/2004 9:10 PM
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LocalH
Joined: 10/3/2004
Posts: 138
I already did that, since the first time I tried converting it without adding any frames it did not work correctly. After adding two frames, the video plays up until the aforementioned place in 3-1 where FCEU lags. I don't think it's an issue of Famtasia emulating the CPU faster, so much as I feel it's the fact that Famtasia is less accurate than FCEU, and so Famtasia does not lag where FCEU does. I would be willing to share the converted FCM, there are likely more places where FCEU lags and desyncs the movie even more, I haven't tried adding delay frames and fixing the existing FCM other than by adding two frames to the beginning.
Sonic Retro
Posted: 1/14/2005 3:47 AM
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TouchOdeath
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 46
I think it should be legal. http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html The Goal - "We are creating art and providing entertainment." Now Keep this quote in mind the whole time. I agree with LocalH 100 percent. It shouldnt be considered cheating, because it doesnt actually skip any frames, but just runs each frame like it was suppose to in the first place, without lag. The only way I think this could be considered cheating is in this given scenario: Person A does a speedrun of game X and has lets say 1000 frames total in it(I know 1000 frames would be a short game, but just try to get the concept down) WITHOUT overclocking. Person B does the same game and gets the same frame count, but the only difference is Player B overclocked his NES which gave him a faster real-life time. He got that faster real life time because where areas player A would lag, Player B would not (due to the fact that his NES runs better). "Trying to deal with lags in timeattack is clever." Maybe so phil, but so is driving the steering wheel with your feet. Driving with your feet would require you to learn new things since your not used to it, but you dont have to drive with your feet. I perfer to use my hands to control the steering wheel, but thats just me. If eliminating ingame lag is cheating, then using 3rd party programs/modified versions of the original emulator to manipulate the frame speed at your command and other various things, should REALLY be illegal. "The tools are not there to just overcome our lack of being perfect players, but to give us superhuman perception and godly control of the game." Sounds like cheating to me, But since our goal is provide an entertaining video, then neither overclocking, or tool assist programs are considered cheating. Now, it WOULD be considered cheating, if this sites goal would be to provide entertaining videos without manipulation of the game or the game engine of any form or fashion(also known as 'legit' speed runs, TSA is widely known and respected for his 'legit' speed runs). Another thing that has to be done, is Like Mr. Bisqwit has done, is he has informed the public, that the people on this site do infact use these tools to their advantage. Same thing with Overclocking, you have to inform the public that you are taking advantage of overclocking and you also must know what MHZ the player clocked it to.
Posted: 1/14/2005 4:09 AM
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nesrocks
He/Him
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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
TouchOdeath wrote:
(...)it doesnt actually skip any frames, but just runs each frame like it was suppose to in the first place(...)
that is not true, the game was made for the original nes hardware, and that included lag. the testers played with lag, the programmers had lag (probably, i guess) so the game was tuned difficulty-wise with the lag present
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 1/14/2005 4:12 AM
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TouchOdeath
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 46
Well sure the game had lag originally, I was just saying that in a perfect world there would be no lag.
Posted: 1/14/2005 7:15 AM
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Blublu
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
The idea of doing timeattacks with an "overclocked" emulator is just ridiculus. The lag was there on the original system, so why should we deliberately get rid of it? It would really just be a lot of hassle for a tiny increase in speed. What's the big deal?
Posted: 1/14/2005 7:18 AM
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BoltR
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well FCEU already has the option to get rid of the "flashing" sprites, which was used to help with the lag was it not? It's "Allow more than 8 sprites per scanline.", and it doesn't seem to make a difference in the way of desyncing. Also, i'm not sure that it should be legal. In some games the developers took special notice that there would be lag and used tricks to get around it. Zanac is a example of this I beleive, although I cannot remember exactly the trick that it uses, it's on the forum somewhere. Other games have dead frames where nothing happens. Gi Joe 2's controls just get a bit unresponsive, everything still moves, including the player, but if there is two much going on you might not be able to punch/jump/switch weapons on a certain frame causing you to wait for the next frame. If you overclocked the system, and it removed all this from happening you would in effect change how the game works and is played. An extreme example, as it seems people around here seem to enjoy using them, would be using a game genie to remove and stun peroid after taking a hit. Slow downs however don't change the way the game is played. If I try to play Gi Joe 2 frame by frame, I still get the peroids where I cannot input commands. The only difference is i'm able to react at super human speeds. Everything that is done is TECHNICALLY possible on a console.
Posted: 1/14/2005 4:27 PM
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TouchOdeath
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 46
"The idea of doing timeattacks with an "overclocked" emulator is just ridiculus." Some people would also consider doing timeattacks with 3rd party tools to eliminate human limitations is also rediculous. http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html. Read the 'Isn't It cheating' section. I'm sure those people who consider using recording tools cheating, think thats rediculous. "The lag was there on the original system, so why should we deliberately get rid of it? It would really just be a lot of hassle for a tiny increase in speed. What's the big deal?" Why should we get rid of it? So we can make better speed runs. Yes, It would be a hassle for an increase in speed (I wouldn't consider it a 'tiny' increase), but thats 1 less thing we have to worry about. Question to BoltR: Do you know if this is actually caused by the lag caused by too much happening in the screen, or does it happen if theres too much in the screen regardless of lag or not. Assuming dead frames are caused by lag in G.I. Joe 2, then In BoltR's rare scenario, I would agree. It should be illegal because you can't do that on the original console. As far as the other games, If overclocking doesn't have any game-changing effects to it (like Mr.BoltR has pointed out, dead frames) then it should be legal.
Posted: 1/14/2005 4:58 PM
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Blublu
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
So we can make better speed runs.
I fail to see how a faster video is "better" if it bypasses certain functions in a game. You might as well play the file back at double speed, thus making it "faster". But it wouldn't be "better". You said it yourself, we're making entertainment, not "omg I c0mpl3t3d teh gaem faster IM 1337!!!" videos.
Posted: 1/14/2005 5:14 PM
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TouchOdeath
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 46
It would make the runs better, because it would make it THAT much easier to play. Just like using 3rd party tools makes it easier to play. Why play basketball with 1 hand tied behind your back when you can use two?
Posted: 1/14/2005 5:19 PM
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Blublu
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Using your basketball anology, it would be more like replacing the ball with another ball that has different bouncing properties and is lighter. It's not a difference of playing with 1 or 2 hands, since you already had 2 extremely fast and perfectly accurate hands (rerecording/slowdown/frame advance).
Posted: 1/14/2005 5:23 PM
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Tombad
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
I don't see the point in using emulated 'overclocking' to get rid of lag. These videos would then lose their touch with reality, as there most like aren't too many 'clocked NES-consoles around. I think some of the appeal of these videos come from the fact that they could be theoretically done with a stock console. It would be the equivalent of allowing people in the speedrunning scene to use overclocked consoles to get their games running faster.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Posted: 1/14/2005 5:28 PM
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TouchOdeath
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 46
The basketball analogy explained: 1 arm tied behind your back is a representation of lag, because playing with lag is a handicap as well as playing with 1 hand behind your back. Why play with a handicap when you dont have to? Either way, me talking on this forums is perhaps a waste of time (but none-the less its fun :0), because the real influincing factor will be when someone actually does a speed run, and has better results due to the fact that he didnt lag. People will hate the idea at first, but will eventually be forced to go in that direction. Like for example on survivor, when someone invented voting alliances. People hated it at first because it was considered 'cheap' or 'cheating' but he did it, and now its a standard. You have to have voting alliances now to stay in the game. "I think some of the appeal of these videos come from the fact that they could be theoretically done with a stock console." Overclocked consoles don't actually allow you to do things that you couldnt do with it clocked to default (and if you find a game where it does, then it should be considered illegal on that particular game) it just makes it easier for the player to execute his moves.
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