Also relevantly-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfX-s4dcYBg
TASing a scene, though I suppose it falls outside the usual definition of tools here- he's to be messing with the game world a bunch outside of rewind, slow, etc.
I'd like to add another condition for "getting a billion dollars in the fastest time". What about if you had to it in a way which either
A: fully covered your tracks
B: legitimitley get a hold of a billion dollars
Could you survive a fall from 1000m and be completely unharmed afterwards?
For this kind of questions, I found Toribash very promising, though ultimately a letdown.
IIRC, the record in that game for surviving a fall uninjured is 60 metres. I don't know what the record is for surviving with injuries, but there are some other quite impressive feats in that game.
If your real-life TAS required a gun duel at some point, I've manage to turn and shoot accurately in 9 frames. I think Biobuster has achieved an even lower time than that.
Edit: I just tried dropping 2 people 1 kilometre, and it wasn't pretty. Parts of bodies were scattered everywhere, and I only found one bone that wasn't broken (a rib). Landing on a 45-degree slope isn't much better - one fighter was shredded entirely due to a physics bug, and the other lost a leg and all of his bones.
I was thinking about something similar before.
How long would it take to cross a country or get from city A to city B without using vehicles or planes, if you were "TAS'd"?
Could you survive a fall from 1000m and be completely unharmed afterwards?
Why would you be falling that kind of distance? Where do you live!?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Real life speed runs are actually possible. How make them tool assisted is the problem.
I was thinking of a way to cheat at chess where you have one sender/receiver in each shoe and you'd communicate in binary with some computer that's somewhere else to win quite easily. (tap left, right, left, left, ...; receive an answer in a similar way, have a code for repeating etc)
A mind reading tool would be quite useful, but difficult to fabricate. Just reading body language and stuff without any tools would be more efficient because creating a tool would take too long, wouldn't it?
You could meassure your pulse and stuff though every now and then to check in how good of a condition you are atm as well as how nervous fe.
In any case from a different stand point all of our lives are already tool assisted, we use quite a bunch of tools every day. But most of them haven't been made for speed running..
idk this post may be pointless, but whatever XD
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 317
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
MUGG wrote:
In some games, after falling from a high distance, you can roll to lower the damage you took.
(It's applicable in reality I think.)
It is applicable in reality indeed. What you are doing is basically transfering the impact from the legs to your whole body, from the bones to the muscles on your back (muscles resist to a much higher impact in comparsion to bones).
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rLCTr_chDY
Allthough there is a limit. Much higher than the video and the body won't resist it.
It's not the fall that hurts. It's the sudden stop at the end. If you can slow that stop down, then the instantaneous force at any given moment (which is what causes the damage) is reduced. The same principle applies to crumple zones in cars.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
It's an interesting idea, but he is (and we are) probably thinking very small compared to what the TASes would actually be like if this were possible. Let's say someone makes a standard "100% kills"-in-the-shortest-time run using the suboptimal character Average Joe. According to this article that run would be boring and trivial, but I disagree. If that TAS met standards similar to those we have in this community, almost anything we can imagine now would fall short of what it does, because a TAS of real life would by definition try to push all of reality to its absolute limits, whatever those are.
Sure, maybe a hypothetical "first revision" would just manipulate the right people to accomplish the goal in a few days using present-day technology. But in a more serious attempt, the speedrunner might first find a way to extend his lifespan by thousands of years (that's the easy part), then spend those thousands of years (many times over across rewinds as he tweaks things) cultivating advanced civilizations for the purpose of extracting the best of their technology into a form that could be introduced quickly enough at the very start of the TAS to beat the previous time. Things could even get confusingly recursive (create a simulation of reality+yourself that's good enough that you can breed the ultimate TASers in it and let them plan your run for you). And no matter what lengths the TASer goes to, the result would almost certainly be improvable somehow. For all but the most trivially simple definitions of winning, it's impossible to even imagine what the logical conclusion of such a TAS would be. Far from being "no fun", I suspect we would be totally awestuck (and probably simultaneously amused and horrified) if we were somehow able to see it.
That totally impossible stuff aside, I think most of the scenarios this article mentions are actually well within the realm of possibility, because a game or simulation could be developed that approximates actuality closely enough that somebody TASing it could attempt to accomplish goals in exactly the way this article is suggesting. It's probably even possible using technology from the not-very-distant future, since a simulation doesn't have to be all that accurate for a lot of the things we can easily imagine to be possible in it.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Cpadolf wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
What is the hypothetical input format for a real world TAS? I think there exists nothing in the world that corresponds with controller input. :(
Signal pulses in the brain or something like that.
That would be the most intuitive approach, but I think the problem with signal pulses in the brain is that they are already there and they follow some laws of some physics. Where would the new input signals come from exactly? The TASer could not just change a brain signal to another without hacking the physics of the game world, or could he? I wouldn't mind having such "mildly cheated" files in the concept demos section, though.
But what would happen, if the player character took a part of his brain and implanted it to another head? Would the TASer then control two characters? Why couldn't the TASer control all brains in the world immediately, if he can control the brain signals of the player character?
What would it mean to control the brain signals anyway? Could the player human shoot lightning bolts from his head when the TASer switches some brain signal values to 255? Some brain signals are involuntary or somatic by default, but would the TASer control all of them?
I've heard that some master monks can (in real life!) control some of their body mechanisms (like body temperature) by mediation, so how about a real-life TAS duel between Fireman and Iceman? Mega Man would be in the middle and shoot some white stuff from his big cannon, naturally. Yeah, any Average Joe would be interestingly overpowered, if full control over all brain signals was available. Basically, all muscles would be controlled perfectly and independently allowing unimaginable special moves and critical hits. I bet any body could be made to fly in almost no time. Think about the 1000 meter fall again - it's a piece of cake really.
Yeah, the TASer would definitely use the brain signals for much more than just controlling the everyday body movements. That is what TAS players do, they use input to break stuff for their advantage. Brain signals affect so many things even beyond the immediate limits of the body via Magnetoism etc. At the first few moments in any run, the player character would probably transform into something or at least drop off some unneeded payload like hair, eyes, ears, genitals and more.
So, what restrictions would the TASer as a player have? Is the whole world regarded as a single game where different runs are made? Then how many runs would be accepted for publication! I bet many submissions would be rejected due to having arbitrary limitations, like not using prayers or not harming females and TASVideos members.
If there is no well-defined input or game, then it would be just some mindless hacking of the World (W) [!].rom.
Well, OK, it could be so that the brain signals (or whatever signals) are somehow non-deterministic, so that the TASer actually could alter them freely at any time without immediately breaking the world. As a side note, if I was a player character in such a TAS, I wouldn't notice the spontaneous changes in my brain activity anyway, just like Mario zombie has no clue about the input that controls his choices.
Even if the input was working somehow, there would still be many funny problems with the common TAS concepts. For example, how to define "record from reset"? Does it mean that the movie starts from a Big Bang or from the beginning of the life of the player character? When does life begin then? More importantly, at what point would the player character start accepting input: at the time of conception or just after the birth? Oh, of course... I already forgot that the emergence of brain signals would bring control to the TASer. It would start simply, with very few input possibilities in the early stage of embryo development and...
Heh, I can't even imagine the work required for planning and quantum-luck-manipulating optimal level-ups in the womb before bursting out (Alien-style!) and crawling to the nearest telephone to call a nuclear strike or something (just for a stupid playaround run).
Aren't there some Sims games for GBA? Someone TAS them, please.
Let the input be memories. Makes it more interesting anyway, you practically have to set your memories in a way that you also encounter situations which trigger you to recall specific memories at certain times.
Maybe some higher beings treat us like marionettes anyway and are simulating the future, then deciding to check and give us random ideas and then go with the one which would provide the best results. That would explain flash of wits in a weird way. xD
Maybe they have a limit of possible simulations of the future because they go in real time. Makes the MMORPG more interesting and it also wouldn't work if several players could freeze time, they'd always have to wait for the last one to finish his move until the next frame. >_>
And that's what we're always doing anyway.. Trying to calculate future events, then selecting the best option or suddenly getting an unexpected idea. The only thing that doesn't seem to happen in real time out of our perspective are the flash of wits or just sudden ideas. Those are like the higher beings' input. Or those moments where you do something and aren't even aware of why and how you're doing it, even though it's for the first time. Could also result from the higher beings planting scripts into our brains. Like input macros. ^^
Like they know there'll be a car accident and you'd normally be hit by the car and die. Then you suddenly move unconsciously away from the source of danger because the life saving script is triggered. Of course only if your player isn't lazy and has simulated those future events well enough to find a way for you to survive. Those are btw experiences where lots of people start believing in God and stuff. :X
Higher being MMORPG religion ftw?
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
If you could really luck manipulate perfectly, you could use uncertainty to allow the conditions to be met instantly.
I.E. every person on earth dies instantly because all of the electrons in their brains coincidentally ended up outside of their skulls.
Better condition would be no luck manipulation, necause stupid things can happen given astronomical odds.
If you could really luck manipulate perfectly, you could use uncertainty to allow the conditions to be met instantly.
I.E. every person on earth dies instantly because all of the electrons in their brains coincidentally ended up outside of their skulls.
Luck manipulate by doing what? If you are restricted to controlling only one person then is there really something a single person could do that propagates exactly such a quantum state to the entire rest of the world and does it faster than a more conventional method? Even from the perspective of the hypothetical TASer that has the ability to try it, it sounds ridiculously nightmarish to even think of attempting such a thing that would probably be too slow anyway. And if there is some way that's fast enough, that would really surprise me and the method would probably be quite interesting.
I guess there could be a "player controls X billion characters simultaneously" TAS but that's a whole different category and not really what was being considered.
Twelvepack wrote:
Better condition would be no luck manipulation, necause stupid things can happen given astronomical odds.
Even in regular TASes a "no luck manipulation" condition would be meaningless. Somehow I doubt it's valid to even call whatever it is "luck" in real life.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Luck manipulate by starting the simulation, and checking to see if everyone on earth died, then restarting. Because the outcome is based on the randomness of quantum particles, each trial would be unique, so in some theoretical sense, it could work.
Also-- I realize how silly the idea of "no luck manipulation" is, but luck manipulation could literally cause anything that could happen, to happen, And thanks to quantum mechanics, almost anything could happen. It it basically limitless.
I guess it isn't proven yet that quantum particles operate randomly.
We only consider something to be random as long as we don't understand the precise mechanics behind it.
For all people on earth to die off luck manipulation, you'd need a very high number of rerecords, if it's possible at all in a short time.
I'd also find nitsuja's run more entertaining. ;)
That would be a good experiment actually, to see if quantum mechanics are truly non-deterministic. I know they are in the "scientific" sense or whatever in that any experiment we perform has non-consistent results. But perhaps we are just not aware of all the preconditions that affect the outcome -- there could be non-observable things (by us) that affect the results. If you could do a full save state you could have a "truly" repeatable experiment.
Edit: yeah, what Kuwaga said :)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
You'd never complete such a run. You'd die of old age well before then. The problem is that when you use a rerecord by loading a save state, your mind must actually carry over (else you wouldn't know how to improve your future!) That means your brain would be kept in the same condition as the future, which in turn means it would age.
Unless you become a demi-god or specter or some other immortal entity, you wouldn't be able to achieve the emulation part of the equation!
You'd never complete such a run. You'd die of old age well before then. The problem is that when you use a rerecord by loading a save state, your mind must actually carry over (else you wouldn't know how to improve your future!) That means your brain would be kept in the same condition as the future, which in turn means it would age.
You do not need to use your brain for the memory. You can choose an auxiliary memory that is practically immortal, such as a piece of paper (or something more robust such as a stone plate). That way, you can carry your progress to your younger self without the person having to age a bit.
Carrying objects back through time when rerecording sounds like a strange concept to me though. XD
My suggestion was that you don't use any input the traditional way, but manipulate your memories only once and at the beginning of the movie, then let everything happen. Doesn't this solve the problem?
Edit: I just reread my post above and I didn't suggest that actually, but I meant to. ;)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Bisqwit wrote:
Omega wrote:
You'd never complete such a run. You'd die of old age well before then. The problem is that when you use a rerecord by loading a save state, your mind must actually carry over (else you wouldn't know how to improve your future!) That means your brain would be kept in the same condition as the future, which in turn means it would age.
You do not need to use your brain for the memory. You can choose an auxiliary memory that is practically immortal, such as a piece of paper (or something more robust such as a stone plate). That way, you can carry your progress to your younger self without the person having to age a bit.
Still violates one of the most integral principles of tool-assisted speedrunning: the fact that the runner is on a higher plane above and strictly separated from the (game) environment. (Of course, the aging brain method does too.)
You'd need to be a god controlling a mere mortal for it to work.
