It would be nice to have an ATP-Race-like ranking.
Wikipedia wrote:
The ATP defines the ATP Race as "an easy-to-understand, simple-to-follow annual race from season start to season end. Every player starts at zero at the beginning of the year and the player who accumulates the most points by season's end is the World Number 1".
So, I know we've discussed rankings ideas a thousands times already, but I think this one is really simple and it could be somewhat fun. Also, it may get more people to finish TASes just to be the World Number 1 or at least a Top 10. :P
What I had in mind was something like this (numbers are only used as an example):
- For every published TAS the player would get 100 points.
- To promote TASes on different systems, the less TASes a console has, the more extra points the player gets. For example, a TAS for the SMS gets +25 extra points, a TAS for the N64 gets +15 extra points, for the NES it only gets +5, etc.
- To promote new games, TASes of never published before games would get +25 extra points.
- To promote significant obsoletions, TASes would get extra points depending on how much of an improvement it has against the obsoleted movie. For example, a new movie 5% faster than the old one would get +5 extra points, a movie 20% faster would get +20 extra points, etc.
We can automatically calculate all these points and have a live ranking with all of the players and their points and all that. The one with the most points at the end of the year, he becomes the World Number 1 TASer.
Mock-up for people who can't read my English or are lazy to read something this long or just don't care at all about this idea but they want to see a picture of something anyway:
And the Hall of Fame:
(Names are only used as examples.)
Does anyone else like this idea?
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
I find it laughable that when you make up a list of top TASers, I somehow end up at the top despite having TASed a grand total of about 75% of one level of a NES game. :) Also, I'm from Spain, apparently.
The overall concept seems sound, even though I could pick nits with the specific implementation (e.g. encouraging people to TAS never-before-TASed games could get a lot of crap games on the workbench; not all games are equivalently easy to TAS, etc.). The main goal, of getting more people to make TASes, is definitely something I can agree with.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Interesting that I'm #2, as well, considering that I haven't TASed in years (and even then.)
On topic, though, the major thing this leaves out is those who participate on the forums in WIP discussions, providing help and resources. While a finished product is good, we really shouldn't forget about the people who help it get there.
I think he said the pictures were a mock-up, not something he genuinely calculated.
mz wrote:
- To promote significant obsoletions, TASes would get extra points depending on how much of an improvement it has against the obsoleted movie. For example, a new movie 5% faster than the old one would get +5 extra points, a movie 20% faster would get +20 extra points, etc.
Would "100% faster" mean that the new movie is 0 frames in length, or half the frames than the older one? Both interpretations could be sensible:
- "n% faster" means that we subtract n% of the frames of the current run. This means that eg. "25% faster" means that, for example, if the old run consisted of 100000 frames, the new run uses 75000 frames. It also would mean that "100% faster" means that the new run is 0 frames long.
- "n% faster" means that the old run has n% frames more than the new run. In other words, "25% faster" means that if the new run consists of 100000 frames, it means the old run had 125000 frames. Also "100% faster" means that if the new run consists of 100000 frames, the old run consists of 200000 frames.
- "n% faster" means that the old run has n% frames more than the new run. In other words, "25% faster" means that if the new run consists of 100000 frames, it means the old run had 125000 frames. Also "100% faster" means that if the new run consists of 100000 frames, the old run consists of 200000 frames.
I think this is the best way to calculate it, so a movie can be 200% faster for example, if it is 100000 frames now, and it was 300000 frames before. Or not. Did I get it wrong?
Would "100% faster" mean that the new movie is 0 frames in length, or half the frames than the older one?
Interesting, never thought of that. It seems the second option is the better one, as nineko pointed out.
nineko wrote:
Did I get it wrong?
I think you got it right. Making a movie so fast would be like winning a Grand Slam or something. :P
Xkeeper wrote:
On topic, though, the major thing this leaves out is those who participate on the forums in WIP discussions, providing help and resources. While a finished product is good, we really shouldn't forget about the people who help it get there.
Well, we usually do with our current system too, but there's some big satisfaction with just getting your name on the thanks list of a submission. Also, there couldn't be a possible way to automatically calculate that, sadly.
Derakon wrote:
encouraging people to TAS never-before-TASed games could get a lot of crap games on the workbench
That's what our judges are for. They (and we) would decide which games are good or not and then there wouldn't be any trouble. If there would really be a lot of crap games, we could get a few more judges to help.
@all: I took the names for the list from the last poster of each forum and then I put them on Wikipedia's current ATP lists. They're not real. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Interesting idea, but there are quite a few things I don't like about it. The main thing is that it doesn't take into account even the slightest how much effort was put into a TAS. A short new SMS run would get massive amounts of points, while for instance an improvement of a big NES game (lets say Mega Man) would get little to no points.
This example basically has a lot of different complaints in it, for instance, preferring some systems over others, preferring new runs, preferring large improvements, and so on. In the end, they all don't make any sense at all. An improvement which improves it by frames could have taken huge effort, optimizing lag and luck... while in other cases, minutes are shaved off of a TAS by just a new glitch or route.
In the end, I think the idea of having such a list might be cool, but we already have such a list. The current ranking system assigns scores to your TASes according to their ratings, in a fair way. There wouldn't need to be anything new implemented... just something that keeps up seperately with these scores for each year, besides the overall score.
/Offtopic (@Bisqwit)
It might be interesting if these ranking scores were like determined at a certain time each day, and that at the end of the year we would have graphs for each players scores. Wouldn't that be cool?
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I like the idea, however this could be ruined by a player submitting five or six poor runs in a year rather than two or three good ones just to get points on the board.
I agree with Baxter that the effort gone into an obsoletion may not be properly taken into account, perhaps the tech rating of the obsoleted movie could be used in calculating the points?
Also, some of what you are suggesting is already decided by the community during the annual Tazzie Awards (which will be coming up soon, dust off your tuxedos guys).
I made a quick script in PHP and redid the images of the OP, this time for real:
Hall of fame:
You can also see every year's Top-20 here: tasrace.php.
And here's the source code in case someone wants to modify it or just play with different values for the points: http://pastebin.com/f17788f8b. (It uses this page to get the data: http://tasvideos.org/NewMovies.html.)Baxter wrote:
This example basically has a lot of different complaints in it, for instance, preferring some systems over others, preferring new runs, preferring large improvements, and so on.
That's correct. This list aims to generate more variety for the site; it doesn't take into account if it took a lot of effort to make or not. What I really want (and hopefully other people want this too) is having new material and not even more Metroid/Mario/Zelda/Megaman movies with only small improvements.
Baxter wrote:
In the end, I think the idea of having such a list might be cool, but we already have such a list. The current ranking system assigns scores to your TASes according to their ratings, in a fair way.
I have some problems with that list: most people don't even know it exists and it's not a lot of fun. This list also aims to provide fun to TASers.
Mukki wrote:
I like the idea, however this could be ruined by a player submitting five or six poor runs in a year rather than two or three good ones just to get points on the board.
If someone submits poor runs they shouldn't get published, as we've always done. I don't think this could become a problem. And of course, this idea is only a draft; we could fix the underlying workings later as soon as we see someone is trying to cheat the system. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
In the end, I think the idea of having such a list might be cool, but we already have such a list. The current ranking system assigns scores to your TASes according to their ratings, in a fair way.
I have some problems with that list: most people don't even know it exists and it's not a lot of fun. This list also aims to provide fun to TASers, with this points race running throughout the year.
Well, I meant it would be very possible to use that system to implement your idea of having something ongoing the entire year also. It is virtually the same (it gives points for TASes published), it just decides it on other grounds (a runs rating instead of whether it's a large improvement or new game).
mz wrote:
This list aims to generate more variety for the site; it doesn't take into account if it took a lot of effort to make or not. What I really want (and hopefully other people want this too) is having new material and not even more Metroid/Mario/Zelda/Megaman movies with only small improvements.
Well, I would have a problem with this (it not depending on effort, or entertainment). And I was talking about possible improvements to all movies on the site, not in particular those popular titles. I just used megaman as an example of a run that would be a lot of work, for only very few points in your system.
I personally don't think that people will, because of the existence of a list like this think "Hmm, I want to score points, lets TAS a SMS game". I think people will TAS games that they like in the end anyway.
Edit: btw, the link you posted lists Saturn as TASer of 2004, while it should be Phil. Either way, with your system, I don't know if the term "world nr 1 TASer" is appropriate, if it only focusses on providing a bigger variety.
What I really want (and hopefully other people want this too) is having new material and not even more Metroid/Mario/Zelda/Megaman movies with only small improvements.
These games take by far the most effort to do, hence a bucket load of points should be awarded for improving them. Your system doesn't reward effort, it will only reward people who pick easy to improve runs or do short, relatively simple games which haven't been done yet. I'm currently improving a very tightly optimized run, but your system will look down on me for doing it. On the other hand I'm working on a OoT run, which will probably be 60% faster than the current run. While it is a lot more optimized in general. Most of the big improvements come from using 3-4 to large sequence breaks.
Well, I meant it would be very possible to use that system to implement your idea of having something ongoing the entire year also.
That would be really nice.
Baxter wrote:
I personally don't think that people will, because of the existence of a list like this think "Hmm, I want to score points, lets TAS a SMS game". I think people will TAS games that they like in the end anyway.
Yeah, probably; but at least it might help a little bit for that, perhaps...
Baxter wrote:
btw, the link you posted lists Saturn as TASer of 2004, while it should be Phil.
Er... Yeah, it looks like a PHP bug to me. I also noticed the page didn't load the CSS style on IE and Firefox, I just fixed it.Baxter wrote:
Either way, with your system, I don't know if the term "world nr 1 TASer" is appropriate, if it only focusses on providing a bigger variety.
The "World Number 1" and all that stuff wasn't really mean to be taken too seriously, just for a bit of fun.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
No it won't, it will just give you less points. But more points than someone who does nothing.
mz already said he was rewarding variety rather than frame-shaving. Saying "it doesn't reward effort" is true, but not very helpful. So what? Effort isn't important, attainment is.
And the Hall of Fame:
(Names are only used as examples.)
Does anyone else like this idea?
Hall of fame:
You can also see every year's Top-20 here: tasrace.php.
And here's the source code in case someone wants to modify it or just play with different values for the points: http://pastebin.com/f17788f8b. (It uses this page to get the data: http://tasvideos.org/NewMovies.html.)
