The point is that this would only affect up to 8 buttons, and often only one.
As I said, I understand perfectly that the difference is minimal, but I don't think that deserves insulting me and calling me "dense". It was a perfectly valid and sensible idea.
Presenting a suggestion or idea does not mean it *must* be implemented. It was just that: An idea. However, I don't think it deserves insults either.
Edit: In short, the only "optimization" would be holding down the final buttons all the way to the end, which is a very, very silly thing to base a claim of "optimzation" on.
I still don't see how it is such a "very, very silly thing". One could consider that using a trick to save 1 single frame on a 20-minute TAS is a "very, very silly thing" to do, but nobody does that. It's actually more or less expected for TASers to use those kinds of tricks, even if they save just one frame.
So what if counting key releases could lower the score by at most 8 points? No needless key releases, exactly in the same way as no needless frame wasting in TASes either.
If you think that's silly, that's your prerogative, I guess, but I don't think it deserves insults.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
Fixed? You consider it a problem which needs fixing?
If you must know, it was this reply that triggered my response. Maybe I didn't quite understand your intention with it, but it seemed like bashing to me.
As far as I can tell, the only insult directed explicitly towards you was "anal", in refrence to counting these in the first place. The rest of them were at the ideas, not you.
Another point is that this does not require "tricks" or "discoveries". Any optimization that involves not releasing buttons due to use later would be covered under normal press-only counting. The only potential optimzation is seeing how far you can get without letting go of some now-useless button, again SMB1's start or the A/right buttons for Bowser.
In short, the only "trick", in addition to those covered by the normal presses-only count:
- Will I be required to push this button later? Yes: Let go. No: Hold until the end.
There's almost no difference, and even then what little difference there is is marginal. SMB1 would get at most -3, perhaps -4. And even then, there is little to no optimzation to do; it is a very black and white issue. Either it's possible or it isn't.
This kind of limits this method's usefulness to nothing over the normal presses-only version.
Fixed? You consider it a problem which needs fixing?
If you must know, it was this reply that triggered my response. Maybe I didn't quite understand your intention with it, but it seemed like bashing to me.
I have to admit that while I usually re-read my posts for grammatical mistakes, I do not often think about them in the sense of how they can be interpreted. I apologize if you felt attacked. It was not my intent. I didn't think too much before writing that.
Exactly what is your point in insulting me, Mr. "I have made 17 posts so far"?
"Waaaaaaahhhhh, someone with less posts than me has common sense, waaaaaaaahhh :("
Why do you keep insulting me?
Why do you keep pretending to be so smart when others already know exactly how to deal with the situation presented in a more efficient manner than you do?
Exactly what is your point in insulting me, Mr. "I have made 17 posts so far"?
"Waaaaaaahhhhh, someone with less posts than me has common sense, waaaaaaaahhh :("
Why do you keep insulting me?
Why do you keep pretending to be so smart when others already know exactly how to deal with the situation presented in a more efficient manner than you do?
Your only contribution to this thread has been to insult and attack me in a completely stupid and childish manner. When I clearly asked you why you are doing this, you refuse to answer, and instead keep insulting me. I can't deduce anything else than that you are just an infantile moron.
Exactly what is your point in insulting me, Mr. "I have made 17 posts so far"?
"Waaaaaaahhhhh, someone with less posts than me has common sense, waaaaaaaahhh :("
Why do you keep insulting me?
Why do you keep pretending to be so smart when others already know exactly how to deal with the situation presented in a more efficient manner than you do?
Your only contribution to this thread has been to insult and attack me in a completely stupid and childish manner. When I clearly asked you why you are doing this, you refuse to answer, and instead keep insulting me. I can't deduce anything else than that you are just an infantile moron.
Might as well say the same about you then, as you're unable to comprehend simple things others are trying to tell you.
Okay, both of you, is this actually accomplishing anything useful? Regardless of who's in the right, you're having an argument on the Internet, and you know what that means.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Okay, both of you, is this actually accomplishing anything useful? Regardless of who's in the right, you're having an argument on the Internet, and you know what that means.
"Who is right"? This is not him making an argument and me disagreeing with it. He is outright insulting me and I'm demanding him to explain why he is doing that. He is refusing to do so, and instead continuing with his derogatory writing. He didn't even make any claim at all. His *only* contribution to this thread has been direct blatant insults, nothing else.
If he wants to disagree with my suggestion that's fine, but that's completely different from him insulting me. That's not any more a question of who is right or wrong. Don't make it sound like it was.
Okay, so he's trolling you, whatever, I don't care. Have you accomplished anything thus far? No? Then I don't think carrying it on is going to get anywhere either.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
um, emulators don't pretend that buttons left pressed on the last frame of the movie will stay pressed until a person manually presses and lets go of the button again.
So, regarding the following text...
Warp wrote:
The only counter-argument to this I have seen is that this "problem" (what problem?) can be "fixed" by automatically counting all keys as being released at the end of the movie.
it is not a problem nor does it need fixing because all keys are released when a movie is over. I can modify my program to tell you which buttons were held on the final frame (before input ended and everything held was released), but having a separate release counter would be seriously no more informative than what I just suggested.
How about instead of bitching at each other we see how few presses it will take to beat SMB1?
Less than or equal to 162 163 presses. (Just information; I don't know if anyone missed my post or not)
I challenge anyone to make a SMB1 completion with fewer presses.
Edit: It's 163 according to the Xkeeper Lua script. Sorry about that.
I can modify my program to tell you which buttons were held on the final frame (before input ended and everything held was released), but having a separate release counter would be seriously no more informative than what I just suggested.
Sounds good. Might be interesting information for some nitpickers like myself...
um, emulators don't pretend that buttons left pressed on the last frame of the movie will stay pressed until a person manually presses and lets go of the button again.
So, regarding the following text...
Warp wrote:
The only counter-argument to this I have seen is that this "problem" (what problem?) can be "fixed" by automatically counting all keys as being released at the end of the movie.
it is not a problem nor does it need fixing because all keys are released when a movie is over. I can modify my program to tell you which buttons were held on the final frame (before input ended and everything held was released), but having a separate release counter would be seriously no more informative than what I just suggested.
I was going to say it, but I see I have been beaten to it.
On a different, but topic-related note, perhaps for analog games (N64, PS currently possible?) you have separately, an integration (=summation, since we have the atomic time of change) of the absolute delta, separate from button/dpad since it's going to, otherwise, overmatch the digital signals to insignificance?
Or, perhaps, divide by maximum value (256 or 128, max abs delta or abs value), so having diagonal pressed to max would be 2 press-equivalents, like it would be if input directionally?
I still think that key releases should also be counted. Maybe add it as another value? (Perhaps make it optional if both are shown, or only the key presses value is shown.)
I wouldn't count key-releases as button presses by this reason:
1a. Letting the button go is not a "button press"(by definition) and
b. By your method a key tap(by definition a button press (for x frames)) is 2 presses, 1 for push and 1 for release.
No offense.
Sorry to ask this only at page 5, but...
I fail to see how a movie in this category could be even remotely entertaining compared to the minimum speed goal.
The only thing I can think of, would be watching enemies stupidly missing the hero as he continually moves in a straight line (i.e. in platformers / shooters / etc) ; or maybe, just maybe in a few puzzle games.
And even then, in the first type of game, the runs becomes boring as the player doesn't do much.
IMHO this is more of a RL challenge goal than a TA one. The low number of presses also makes it more feasable in RL, there will be few glitches (mostly, only huge skips will be worth the extra input).
Of course some games may have enjoyable videos, but then we can make an exception for these movies (such as Kirby's Dream Course primary objective of achieving the best score over speed). But as a general TAS concept, I am pretty sure it will fail on the enjoyment side.
Also, I think that counting releases is better: imagine a game where you control a rocket and needs to touch the point of coordinates X. If there's some gravity involved, you may need to stop accelerating not to miss the target, thus adding one meaningful "release" input.
Also, I think that counting releases is better: imagine a game where you control a rocket and needs to touch the point of coordinates X. If there's some gravity involved, you may need to stop accelerating not to miss the target, thus adding one meaningful "release" input.
Any button released will first have to be pressed, any button pressed will have to be released before you can press it again. It doesn't matter whether you count presses or releases, they will be equal. (Although, for the ease of writing a counting program, presses might be better, as you don't have to add one for each button held at the last frame.)
Any button released will first have to be pressed, any button pressed will have to be released before you can press it again. It doesn't matter whether you count presses or releases, they will be equal. (Although, for the ease of writing a counting program, presses might be better, as you don't have to add one for each button held at the last frame.)
Seriously, at least read the last few pages.
When I mentioned counting releases, I obviously meant counting both presses and releases. As in "counting releases is better than not counting them".
Besides, you said it yourself how the number of presses can end up different from the number of releases.
