Could someone please add "One player controls 10 characters" tag to the Humans movie.
The tag is missing from that movie and the case does not differ in any way from the Maniac Mansion movie, which is said to control 3 characters.
Thinking about it, can we really say that the player is "controlling n characters"? He is certainly not controlling them at the same time, which I think is a relevant thing. He is controlling them sequentially, never controlling more than one character at a time.
This is rather different from TASes like gooftroop, where the two characters are genuinely controlled at the same time, with two controllers.
Perhaps this distinction should be made, and the existing tags corrected?
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
By the way, for Maniac Mansion (and Humans as well), isn't the tag redundant, because the multicharacter situation is the default one? You always control three characters in Maniac Mansion, am I right? (Isn't this situation like saying "takes no damage" when actually 1 hit is a deadly one?)
In the same manner, you don't say you "control multiple characters" in a real-time strategy game, because it is obvious.
Four might actually be the highest amount of simultaneous characters in any game in the currently supported systems. When it gets higher than that, the characters are not controlled simultaneously anymore and the movies would not need the tag at all.
Hey, maybe a better idea would be to use something like "uses # controllers". This would solve many problems. And afterall, that is the relevant information: How many controllers are used? It doesn't matter who controls the controllers or how many individual charactes there are, so from any-point-of-view-I-can-think-of, the number of controllers is the most meaningful way of delivering this information.
I suggest changing the tags to "uses # controllers".
I can't find any flaws in your idea, so I'll have to agree.
(Although "uses # controllers to control # characters simultaneously" would be the best, although quite long...)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Except when I TAS, I just use 1 keyboard, even for two characters. I find the controller idea somewhat... umm... contrived, I guess. I like having "simultaneously" in the title, as neither Maniac Mansion nor Humans controls more than 1 character simultaneously.
You are right in that "uses n controllers" may be a bit confusing because most TASes are made with the keyboard, usually not game controllers. Of course what is meant is "uses n emulated controllers to give input to the game through the emulator", but it becomes quickly very confusing and complicated.
I like "player controls n characters simultaneously", and games where more than one playable character is controlled sequentially (using one controller) are excluded from this category. If someone really wants to add a special tag to them, then perhaps something like "player controls n characters sequentially" or something like that.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I agree that talking about controllers in the tags may be a bit misleading for a casual visitor, just like talking about the "one player" who controls many characters.
alden wrote:
Don't LoZ and metroid use 2 controllers for reset sequence?
Yes. I see no problem using the "uses 2 controllers" tag in those movies. Oh, wait... Actually, there is a small problem. If the only reason for using the 2nd controller is to activate the game restart sequence, then the movie would have two different tags with the same meaning: "uses 2 controllers" & "uses game restart sequence". :/
It seems that nothing works perfectly. :)
Maybe we should invent a bunch of new words to describe all these different situations? Afterall, we are now trying to cope with a set of words that was originally used only in ordinary gaming... umm, no, it is a bad idea.
Controls two player characters?
Edit: Better idea
"Simulates play by # players"
where # is the number of controllers used for normal gameplay (as opposed to reset sequence or cheat-code) purposes.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
alden wrote:
Don't LoZ and metroid use 2 controllers for reset sequence?
Don't forget JXQ's SM 100% which uses 5 controllers.
Also, what happens for games when one controller CAN control more than one character, like Ranger X for Genesis?
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
upthorn wrote:
Edit: Better idea
"Simulates play by # players"
where # is the number of controllers used for normal gameplay (as opposed to reset sequence or cheat-code) purposes.
That sounds like a very workable solution for me, with the possible modification of "Simulates simulatenous play by # players", to differentiate games like Track & Field from other, true 2 player movies.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Comicalflop wrote:
Also, what happens for games when one controller CAN control more than one character, like Ranger X for Genesis?
That is a good question. (For those not familiar with the game, the 2nd character is controlled [simultaneously] with the X, Y and Z buttons in a 6-button controller.)
Allright, I'll try answering it just for fun.
One solution would be to separate the tag into two different tags: One tag would tell the number of used characters while the other tag would tell the number of controller inputs used.
Ranger X would then have these tags:
- 2 characters
- 1 controller input
Maniac Mansion would have:
- 3 characters
- 1 controller input
The Lost Vikings:
- 3 characters
- 3 controller inputs
Streets of Rage:
- 2 characters
- 2 controller inputs
Metroid (using restart sequence):
- 1 character
- 2 controller inputs
"1" would be the default value for both of these tags, so those could be left out.
But with this solution, the "# characters" tag would need to be used with movies where it might have little meaning, like some Megaman game where you might control Zero for a short sequence only. Another problem is that some RPGs have very many characters. Also, what tags a Lemmings movie should get?
Maybe splitting the tags is not a good idea. Ranger X sucks anyway, I suppose?
A more workable solution would be to realize that the controlling method for Ranger X is so rare (probably less than 1/3000 games) that the tags won't need to consider it.
upthorn wrote:
The Lost Vikings:
- 3 characters
- 3 controller inputs
I thought the three characters are controlled sequentially (ie. never at the same time) with one single controller? It's a one-player game, if I'm not mistaken.
I disagree giving the "2 controller inputs" to games where the second controlled is used for something else than *playing* the game. Simply using the other controller to restart the game does not count as playing IMO.
A similar situation happens with the 5-controller SuperMetroid run: Although 5 controllers are used, only one is used for actual playing, and thus the other 4 don't count.
But with this solution, the "# characters" tag would need to be used with movies where it might have little meaning, like some Megaman game where you might control Zero for a short sequence only. Another problem is that some RPGs have very many characters. Also, what tags a Lemmings movie should get?
IMO the "controls n characters" should be reserved for situations where the characters are controlled simultaneously with separate controllers. In other words, something which normally could only be done with more than one physical player. Sequential control with one controller does not belong to this category.
If using more than one character (sequentially) is used to complete the game and we would want a tag to indicate that, it should be a different tag which makes it clear and, in my opinion, should only be given to games where using more than one character is *optional*. For games where you control more than one characters in any case, as part of regular gameplay, I don't think there's any reason to give any special mention.
Of course this means that eg. Maniac Mansion and Lost Vikings wouldn't deserve any such tag at all, because controlling more than one character is part of regular gameplay.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Yeah, it may be a good idea to remove the tag from the Maniac Mansion movie.
Warp wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
The Lost Vikings:
- 3 characters
- 3 controller inputs
I thought the three characters are controlled sequentially (ie. never at the same time) with one single controller? It's a one-player game, if I'm not mistaken.
I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I missed anything...
But what exactly is the point of a tag which states the amount of authors? You can see it right away when at the movie page, and why would anyone want to specifically search for runs with multiple authors?
As for "# of controller inputs"... I also don't think that's a good idea. Like mentioned before, strictly, this would include restart sequences such as in zelda or metroid, and runs where input is used to entertain, such as SM100% (or Arkanoid Warped :P) would also need to be listed as 4 or 5 controller inputs. TAS makers could randomly input multiple controller input, and the tags would be meaningless...
Why not just make a tag: "2 player TAS" (or in some rare occasion 3 or 4). This would only be used if multiple players would actually be playing, if something similar to the TAS would be done normally.
"2-player" "3-player" etc seems unambiguous as I don't think people would confuse it with multiple authors.
2-player has a specific meaning in game advertising. Besides, the number of authors should be apparent in the entry's title.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
"2-player" "3-player" etc seems unambiguous as I don't think people would confuse it with multiple authors.
I'll have to disagree with that. I think it is a bit ambiguous.
At the very least the tags ought to be links to a page which explains in detail what those tags mean. The main problem is that tags must be short, but expressing this situation completely unambiguously is very difficult with a short sentence.
2-player has a specific meaning in game advertising. Besides, the number of authors should be apparent in the entry's title.
I'm sure not all people notice that the title lists more than one author.
Also, just listing more than one author doesn't tell us whether the authors made the TAS simultaneously (controlling different characters or whatever) or if they simply made different segments of the run (which, I believe, is the most common situation).
One Player in Two Player Game seems to have inconsistency- one appears to use two players, the other just uses player two (but not player 1).
Two Players and One Player controls Two Characters - one of these is redundant, I think. Could someone please explain a difference/reason they shouldn't be merged?
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
eternaljwh wrote:
One Player in Two Player Game seems to have inconsistency- one appears to use two players, the other just uses player two (but not player 1).
Two Players and One Player controls Two Characters - one of these is redundant, I think. Could someone please explain a difference/reason they shouldn't be merged?
I think Chip 'n Dale - Rescue Rangers was miscategorized to "Two Players", when it should have been "One Player controls Two Characters". Two Players is for when there are two authors playing two characters.
as for Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, It's a very old movie that likely didn't have "Two Players" back then. This has also been fixed.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Like above argued: Simultaneously? Because in battletoads notes, "Differently than some may think, we didnt record this at the same time, as we live very far from each other."
The only 1p controls 2c run with two authors that's obviously not is the Upthorn/Nitsuja sonic run, since it was additions by upthorn to Nitsuja's movie.
The other possible offenders (just based on # of authors, not knowing actual reason to put in "Two Players") are 1071,1013,830,1064, and 1038. But I can't say certainly whether these tags need changing, only that they might.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" --"Self Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson ...but only a foolish one.
Perhaps give every movie "(insert # of authors) author(s) control(s) (insert # of characters) character(s) using (insert # of inputs) controller input(s)"?
...Though it wouldn't be a very short tag...<_<'
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3005Y.html, this movie does use two players simultaneously (for the final boss) I think the One Player in Two Player Game tag just got carried from the older versions. Plus several old movies seem to be missing it (Streets of Rage 2, for example)
It is also interesting to know where a game as Adventure Island 2 would fall under. During the boss fights, your input (only 1 controller) controls both the man and the dino, so technically 1 player controls 2 characters (with 1 controller). Would this also get such a tag?
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I'm too lazy to read the older discussion right now, so I'm not sure if there was some problem with introducing a new tag for "uses # controllers".
Technically speaking, I think this is the order of priority:
1. The number of controllers used
This gives technical information about the input file content. For people who know the game, it also immediately tells how many characters were used. Thus, it is more relevant than the two others below.
2. The number of characters used
This gives information about the AVI content: There may be more than one player character doing stuff on screen. The same information is usually covered by the number of controllers used, but sometimes not. This is the most problematic case, because there is no clear way to define "player character". Are there some reasons for not replacing this tag with the number of controllers?
3. The number of authors (players)This has nothing to do with the input file content or the AVI content. It only tells the same thing that is already told when the authors of the movie are listed. In my opinion, this looks like redundant data in the tags.
I'm too lazy to read the older discussion right now, so I'm not sure if there was some problem with introducing a new tag for "uses # controllers".
I warmly suggest you read the previous dicussion about the subject. It's just page 2 in this thread. It deals exactly with your suggestions.
Technically speaking, I think this is the order of priority:
1. The number of controllers used
This gives technical information about the input file content. For people who know the game, it also immediately tells how many characters were used. Thus, it is more relevant than the two others below.
As noted by several people, some TASes use more than one controller, but not for gameplay (ie. not to control that many playable characters). For example if the second controller is used exclusively to activate a restart sequence, should it be counted as "uses 2 controllers" or not? (IMO not.)
Also someone argued that "uses # controllers" might be a bit confusing because usually the keyboard (a single one) is used to create TASes, not gamepads (and even if gamepads were used, I bet nobody has made a "1 player controls 2 characters" with two gamepads :) ).
Of course "uses # controllers" refers to emulated controllers (not physical ones), but that might not be completely clear to some.
