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This run aims for the fastest completion time in 1p very hard mode. I used the characther yoshi, instead of the common choice , fox. I Tas'ed two test runs before this one and i got to the conclusion that yoshi beats the game in a faster time than fox.
stage 1 : link - Not much seen here i used DJC to get him quickly to the edge and finished with FAIR. Couldn't use less DJC's and i had to manipulate link's DI in the right direction or no direction at all.
stage 2 : yoshi - painfull one, but i got an excelent run, the yoshis fell in favorable position's for the DTILTS which is the only technique that is able to 1 hit Ko them without a star finish on very hard mode.
stage 3 : Fox - re did this from the beggining about 7 times and finally managed to manipulate him to do a left roll which saved me from having to use a grab and saved a few frames. As for the DJCs, beautifull combo and got perfectly timed with the spike in the end
stage 4 : Mario bros. - Maybe the best stage in the whole run, got both the brothers in the same position allowing me to combo them exactly at the same time and saved a lot of frames.
stage 5: Pikachu - had a problem with the start. pikachu would come to the left side of the stage no matter what i did, i had to wait for him to do a dash attack so i could start the DJC. Just after the first NAIR pikachu did a roll to the right which helped a lot and saved 1 DJC, the last FAIR had to be delayed 1 frame in order for pikachu to die quicker saving another 7 frames.
stage 6: DK - Much faster than the usual fox strategy. Beating DK with 2 eggs was very quick, fast falling and delaying the last B allowed DK to die while still inside the egg and that was enough to get the time counter from 4:55 to 4:56.
stage 7 :kirby team - Another perfect stage. Killing the first kirby with a spike made the "mario kirby" come to the left platform and allowing me to manipulate the other kirbys in the same position.
stage 8 : samus - the strategy used was the one i found to be fastest but no matter what i changed in the whole run i had to waste 1 frame before starting running or else she would shoot the energy ball, having to jump early to avoid it, parrying it or anything was slower than wasting 1 frame.
stage 9 : metal mario - same as DK. metal mario dies faster because of his super weight.
stage 10 :polygon team - painfull one, manipulation all the polygons in the same position is very hard. Managed to manipulate a snorlax from a pokeball to kill 4 polygons before they could reach the floor.
final stage - Master hand went just as planned without modifications from my test runs. Just used a diferent manipulation using yoshi's second jump to hit the floor instead of falling normally, both takes the same ammount of frames.
bonus stages: the bonus stages are something that made yoshi an "unfavorable characther" but the improvements in the run make up for the time lost here.

mmbossman: In general, fighting games usually do not make good TASes when speed is the primary goal. The problem usually stems from having to use one or two strategies repeated over and over in order to achieve the fastest time. While this may impress people who are knowledgeable about the game, it tends to be monotonous for the average viewer, which I think the voting for this movie, along with the resulting discussion, has demonstrated.
Most of the fighting games with runs currently published focus on showing off, while still aiming to be moderately fast. I believe that this game also fits that mold; it is preferable to show off much of what the game has to offer while sacrificing some time for the benefit of more entertainment. While I acknowledge the fact that this will be an unpopular decision with some people, I believe that this game works better as a TAS when it focuses on entertainment. Therefore, I am rejecting this submission in favor of this submission.

adelikat: Unrejecting this submission for consideration into the Vault tier.
Nahoc: Added YT module.
Nahoc: Judging...
Nahoc: Rejecting this movie since it is clearly un-optimal by today's standards. An already faster TAS by DennisBalow using Kirby has been posted on YouTube in 2009. A new and faster submission using (most likely Kirby) would probably be accepted for the vault tier. Until then, it is meaningless to publish this as it fails to beat known records.


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Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272
that i agree with. it's just that one or two people mentioned a multiplayer movie.
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Joined: 1/17/2006
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I hate SSB and think it's a horrible game that shouldn't ever have a run.
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How dare you!
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jimsfriend wrote:
I hate SSB and think it's a horrible game that shouldn't ever have a run.
I think run is a SSB shouldn't that horrible ever game have a hate. Seriously though, SSB is rad to play but I doubt there will ever be a run that perfectly balances speed and entertainment. The game just isn't suited to be treated that way. It would be cool to see what someone could put together in 2x training mode using two controlled characters with nice item usage.
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Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
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I think the best for this game would some kind of 4-player-playaround (2 vs 2). I personally found this run entertaining, it was way to short to be repitive (imho) but it surely isn't perfect.
Joined: 4/3/2006
Posts: 269
This is the second time I've watched a SSB TAS and I one is more entertaining the first one I've watched. Voting yes!
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339
After watching this, I have to say yes. However, I almost get the impression that this run would be more entertaining to people who have never actually played the game.
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Kles wrote:
However, I almost get the impression that this run would be more entertaining to people who have never actually played the game.
I'm sure they'd get great thrills from repetitive moves and rapid smashes to the bottom of the world.
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Kles wrote:
After watching this, I have to say yes. However, I almost get the impression that this run would be more entertaining to people who have never actually played the game.
It'd be more entertaining to people who've played the game and either had no idea such techniques can be done or understand the technical difficulty required. People who've never seen the game are more likely to say "well, that's easy and boring." Actually, random nobodies are good judges of games, aren't they? Not that I'm biased or anything...
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Acheron86 wrote:
Actually, random nobodies are good judges of games, aren't they? Not that I'm biased or anything...
No, they aren't. That's like saying that your average joe off the streets would be the best wine judge. To deem something quality, you need to have a certain experience with the subject. To deem something interesting, you really need to take things beyond their face value. The average person would look at SMB3 and think "its a guy who runs and jumps on stuff a lot. so what?"
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To clarify what I meant: It's more interesting just to get a quick glimpse of various aspects of the game; it's not the actual TAS that is the most interesting part. The interest comes in seeing the game, which I suppose a non-TAS speedrun could do just as well. Regardless, the question is, "Did you like watching this movie?" and the answer to that is "yes."
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Zurreco wrote:
That's like saying that your average joe off the streets would be the best wine judge.
Well that smacks of elitism :) If I can't tell the difference between a $50 and a $100 bottle, why should I let other people tell me I should pay more because it's "better"? Why should we dictate what people should like? I'm not implying that we should solely "give the people what they want" -- in that case I suppose it would be mostly pr0n -- but ivory tower hand waving has a way of putting people off. I think it would be very interesting to have a mechanism for judging what the bulk of the audience (not all us strangely obsessive forum dwellers) enjoys and doesn't, because they do not have the same picky eye for sloppiness and are detached from any sort of "politics". And no, movie rating does not count as this :)
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Zurreco wrote:
The average person would look at SMB3 and think "its a guy who runs and jumps on stuff a lot. so what?"
Indeed, I still think exactly that about SMB3.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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alden wrote:
If I can't tell the difference between a $50 and a $100 bottle, why should I let other people tell me I should pay more because it's "better"?
You're an idiot for thinking that better is the proper term for that sentence. There is a definitive schism between normal consumption cheeses and connoisseur cheese. Most people would hate high class cheese. It's not that the product is better, but that it is more refined. It does not mean that if you like aged bleu more than provolone that you have better taste, it just means that your palette is not fit to properly appreciate said cheese. In the same instance, I don't think random people are going to be able to appreciate the details in a submission here unless they have ample experience and a wide berth of tastes in publications.
moozooh wrote:
Indeed, I still think exactly that about SMB3.
Further proof that you're a plebian ho ho ho comrade. I really don't like it either, but I can at least appreciate it. I mean, I really really dislike the SM64 runs on the site, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of subjective judgement.
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Zurreco: Maybe I need to clarify. Obviously, something objective like deciding whether a run looks as short as possible benefits from an experienced eye. That's where a "random nobody" would fail utterly at judging a submission. Something like "entertainment" however does not require any sort of special talent. They can precisely "judge" whether they liked watching the movie. I may not be able to tell you how much a wine has been "refined," but I can tell you whether I like it or not. TASVideos is not about finding purely "refined" runs, but about entertaining people. In that sense, anybody can "judge" movies and I feel that their input is valuable. I don't think a "random nobody" would be a good Judge with the ability to accept movies and whatnot.
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Joined: 8/23/2008
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Zurreco wrote:
No, they aren't. That's like saying that your average joe off the streets would be the best wine judge. To deem something quality, you need to have a certain experience with the subject. To deem something interesting, you really need to take things beyond their face value.
That's a fair criticism considering my choice of words, so let me be more specific: in a situation where the experts can't agree, a fresh perspective can be a good thing. Anyway I was mostly joking with that sentence, I guess it wasn't obvious enough. I do think that, in this situation, given that we have a fair amount of SSB fans here and there's no clear consensus on the quality of the run, it might be good to have the opinions of people not so familiar with the content.
The average person would look at SMB3 and think "its a guy who runs and jumps on stuff a lot. so what?"
Actually this is a pretty good point; I personally found the SMB3 TAS to be less than fascinating. However, the published run is as entertaining as it can be as it speeds through the game, which is different than what this run does. I'm also generally in favor of the idea that fighting games should generally have speed as a secondary goal, which sets it apart from comparisons to any other genre. I appreciate your wine analogy as well but you shouldn't have to be a TAS conniseur to enjoy a TAS of SSB, I think.
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Acheron86 wrote:
I appreciate your wine analogy as well but you shouldn't have to be a TAS conniseur to enjoy a TAS of SSB, I think.
I would probably take the word of an established site member who has something to lose over the opinion of a random nobody who hasn't said bubkus about anything non-64 related.
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Zurreco wrote:
I would probably take the word of an established site member who has something to lose over the opinion of a random nobody who hasn't said bubkus about anything non-64 related.
The problem with an argument which uses implication is that it leaves the recipient with no real way to respond. You could be being snide or arrogant, but if I assume so and I'm wrong it reflects poorly on me, and if I assume so and I'm right I still set a bad precedent for how I want to be perceived by arguing with the guy who's been around much longer. All I can really say is that I wanted to bring my two cents to the table here, I thought it was a good a place as any to join a community which is focused around something I hold in high regard. If the precedent here is that newbies shouldn't voice their opinions, I'll acquiesce, though I'm not quite sure how to go about ever being more than a newbie if I can't say what I think. I'm also okay with the idea that my opinion isn't currently worth anything to the majority of this forum's members, so just let me know if it's considered bad form here to say my thoughts if I'm not well-known. Either way, I stand by my opinion that a good TAS should entertain more than just TAS diehards.
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Acheron86 wrote:
All I can really say is that I wanted to bring my two cents to the table here, I thought it was a good a place as any to join a community which is focused around something I hold in high regard. If the precedent here is that newbies shouldn't voice their opinions, I'll acquiesce, though I'm not quite sure how to go about ever being more than a newbie if I can't say what I think. I'm also okay with the idea that my opinion isn't currently worth anything to the majority of this forum's members, so just let me know if it's considered bad form here to say my thoughts if I'm not well-known. Either way, I stand by my opinion that a good TAS should entertain more than just TAS diehards.
I can't speak for Zurreco, but I didn't read his argument as implicating *you* as the person who doesn't know anything. I read it as *anyone in general*, which usually makes me think of the average youtube user (shudder). So far your responses and contributions to discussion have been excellent (i.e. understandable and in complete sentences, which can be a rarity online), so please don't think we have any sort of prejudice against people who are new to the site. I love to hear what anyone has to say, as both a player being critiqued on my submitted run, and as a judge trying to make an informed decision about someone else's run. So please feel free to keep posting :) EDIT: And I agree that a good TAS should entertain more than just TAS diehards. However, we have a submission process so that we can filter through which runs we want on this site. There is nothing preventing someone from encoding their run, or a rejected run, and posting it elsewhere. It's been done before, will be done again, and is an entirely acceptable alternative.
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mmbossman wrote:
cool stuff
Thanks for that. It would be an accurate accusation if it is personal but if it's not then no harm done. Even if it is, you can't please everyone, right? Regardless, it's nice to feel welcomed. At any rate, it wasn't my intention to get off-topic, so I apologize. Of course, now that the "entertainment" run has been submitted I'm not sure there's much left to say here. If anyone somehow missed it, there's encodes in that thread, so go see it if you haven't already! It's excellent.
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Oh, err, no, that was actually pointed at the few of the people who posted Yes votes on the first two pages. Then again, nothing on this forum is ever personal... ...except the following: Nach is Stalin (DMG/GBx). Saturn is Adonis. Warp is Strom Thurmond.
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If it means anything, I, a dude who's been around for a while or whatever, found this run enjoyable. And I found the other run enjoyable. And for that matter, I've enjoyed all the Smash Bros. submitted runs that I've watched. Though I don't know that I've watched them all. And as such, I am voting yes for both. So I guess I'm an idiot or something. But I don't particularly care if they're published or not as I now have encodes, and that suits me just fine :) Thanks for the effort, Blaze.
Joined: 8/28/2008
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I think its ridiculous that people are citing repetitiveness as a reason to not accept this game. Many of the RPG speed runs on this site have much worse cases of repetitiveness that aren't even necessarily seen by the person watching the movie in the luck manipulation that happens behind the scenes. Of course, in those games, you can't really sack time for entertainment and thus, they HAVE to end up repetitive, but in that case, shouldn't those runs just not be published at all (since entertainment is one of the key goals of this site)? If the entertaining part of those runs is supposed to be the amount of time that they're beaten in, then isn't most of the entertainment value found in just looking at the text that says "beaten in x:xx" ? Honestly, the way Smash is structured, it really is more an action game then a fighter, and it just has a more obviously seen optimal method of beating each stage in the game. At least in the way the game is structured in the 1p mode. Smash is also different from traditional fighters in the fact that you have a different stage each time, instead of a vanilla flat ground, and even different matchups from the normal 1v1s that occur. So why is Smash not accepted on grounds of being repetitive and RPGs are OKed? I think its because people on this site, and probably a good majority of people with casual knowledge of TASs already have an idea of the amount of luck manipulation that goes into RPGs. And they watch said videos with this concept in mind. If you go into a RPG TAS with the mindset of "oh, well, he's just getting lucky every time." then that run isn't going to be interesting. At all. Similarly, if you go into this speedrun with the mindset of "oh, he's just doing the same move sequence every time" its not going to be interesting either. The problem is that Smash is seen by many as a shallow game that doesn't require much planning/manipulation. The amount of technical skill that is actually displayed in the video is incredible but is lost at the people who never really got down and dirty with the more indepth mechanics of the game. Thus, I'm voting yes. Edit: Guess I can't vote yet. Oh well, just wanted to rant.
Joined: 7/16/2006
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Zurreco wrote:
There is a definitive schism between normal consumption cheeses and connoisseur cheese. Most people would hate high class cheese. It's not that the product is better, but that it is more refined. It does not mean that if you like aged bleu more than provolone that you have better taste, it just means that your palette is not fit to properly appreciate said cheese. In the same instance, I don't think random people are going to be able to appreciate the details in a submission here unless they have ample experience and a wide berth of tastes in publications.
Yes, but this fails to address the issue. There are two things to consider about the video: optimization and entertainment. Optimization is more akin to the refinement you're talking about. The reason we keep watching the frame war improvements to things like SM64 and Super Metroid is because we appreciate those finer details. Entertainment-wise, the runs, especially SM ones, aren't really that different. However, much of this topic, and indeed, it seems, most of the reasons people have for voting no or meh on this TAS, is that it is not entertaining. This is not because it is suboptimal but because people don't like how it looks. The problem with this judgement is that not everyone agrees. Many people have said the run entertained them. In this case, refined taste for optimality is of no consequence. Quality and refinement may not be determined by popular vote, but entertainment is. So, unless someone can point out why this run is so horribly unoptimized that it should be rejected on that alone, I see no reason to reject it. Entertainment is purely subjective, and it seems the majority finds it entertaining.
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Zurreco wrote:
Warp is Strom Thurmond.
QFT
Has never colored a dinosaur.
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