Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
To Kriole and Taco, I am completely honest when I say this. I do not remember (if ever) when watching a WIP/run, that has brought soooo much drama, tense etc. Im referring to your Reverse-Boss-Order run. I thought soooo many times: "like, how the heck will they survive next area given the fact their HP drops like crazy". What differentiates this run is that its like a horror movie; you have no idea how the next scene will occur and that is why this run is one of a kind and very special. Its not "just" an improvement to some old run, its completely new!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
The next timesaver is the timesaver Cpadolf accidently spoiled in Spoofers WIP. Although incredibly hard to detect, it saved about 9-13 frames. (This is hard to measure, but it's somewhere in that area) Some weird bug/glitch/abuse allows the eye-door, during certain circumstances, to be shot even though it is not on-screen, and even if it's not opened (I think).
First of, I didn't spoil it, the WIP I leaked did not contain this, not that it matters.
Second, I always assumed that this worked simply because when you where crouched the Super Missile started from a few pixels lower, allowing you to hit the eye from further away, Maybe there is more to it, I don't know. I don't think that it matters if it is of screen by just a little.
First of, I didn't spoil it, the WIP I leaked did not contain this, not that it matters.
Yes you did, don't deny it!! ={ (mustache)
Cpadolf wrote:
Second, I always assumed that this worked simply because when you where crouched the Super Missile started from a few pixels lower, allowing you to hit the eye from further away, Maybe there is more to it, I don't know. I don't think that it matters if it is of screen by just a little
I thought that the speed is also added to the super, allowing it to travel low and fast enough to hit low enough.. (?)
Yeahhhh
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Incredible WIPs Powerrangers!
A few comments to clear things up for you guys:
Kriole wrote:
The next timesaver is the timesaver Cpadolf accidently spoiled in Spoofers WIP. Although incredibly hard to detect, it saved about 9-13 frames. (This is hard to measure, but it's somewhere in that area) Some weird bug/glitch/abuse allows the eye-door, during certain circumstances, to be shot even though it is not on-screen, and even if it's not opened (I think).
Nope, it's not a bug at all. The fact is, it just doesn't matter at all whether the eye door is on screen or not. If you get close enough to it, it will open it's eye no matter of the screen position (which is what happened in your and my old any% runs case). The reason you could shoot the Missile from so far away and still hit the center of the eye is, as NameSpoofer already guessed, that the momentum of the mockball can still be maintained (even with the additionally aim up delay before the shot), which speeds up the Missile significantly in the horizontal direction while keeping neutral speed in the vertical.
Kriole wrote:
The next timesaver is the debris on the way up from Phantoon (again). The reverse crumble was used, and it was a gain in 3 aspects:
You can lay the powerbomb earlier, you get more speed when transitioning, and it is faster framewise. And it's hot.
Very nice trick I must admit to have missed in my run. Good job.
Kriole wrote:
And that also goes for the WS statue-room, 30 frames gained here.
Which is still 1 frame slower than what I did in my old any%. I actually wonder why you didn't use my perfect strategy, when there is even a video demonstration available you guys were aware of.
Kriole wrote:
Avoiding a demorph when falling down to the Red Brinstar elevator saved a couple of frames (nothing new really).
Obviously this can't be anything new when it was already spoiled a long time ago. You also managed to execute it same fast this time, good job on that.
Kriole wrote:
I've been working on yet another Saturn route RBO, since I had time to waste.
Behold
Wow, very nice improvement this time. I'm highly impressed by the speed and some of the new tricks you used in this run, especially the Kago LN room both ways and blue Brinstar. Great job!
This time you are exactly 1927 frames ahead of my old RBO when entering Ridley's E-Tank room. If we subtract ~1300-1400 frames for the improved Torizo skip, and ~200 frames of sloppy optimization at the beginning of my run (mostly in Crateria, due to lack of knowledge), you are still around 350 frames ahead of it by true improvements (despite skipping a few more Missile packs I collected).
However there are still a few parts you apparently didn't want to improve, such as getting early PBs via the hero shot to save a good deal of time in Norfair (it's even more faster when you skip the hopper PB there anyway), and the hidden Missile below Ice Beam that only takes ~25 frames to get, but will save much more at Ridley. Oh, and I just compared, and the CWJ in the green bubble room is in fact even a bit slower than what I did in my 2nd RBO demo there due to, as already guessed, the much lower starting position you get before walljumping the right wall up of it. Also, using a shinespark in the LN Pirate shaft is a bit slower than what I did in my run. But since it saves a important PB, I think it's still worth it.
Anyway, other than that I couldn't see any more significant mistakes, and look forward how you will handle Maridia and the rest of this extremely entertaining run. Good Luck!
Avoiding a demorph when falling down to the Red Brinstar elevator saved a couple of frames (nothing new really).
Obviously this can't be anything new when it was already spoiled a long time ago. You also managed to execute it same fast this time, good job on that.
This was actually what I was referring to ;].
Also I forgot to mention a 1-frame saver on the Red Brinstar elevator, when coming from WS. It is a trick to avoid holding jump for 1 frame longer (2 frames of airtime), in exchange for 1 frame of extra hangtime. This requires a decent subpixel from the elevator though, so it cannot be utilized in Ceres.
Here
I have not measured if it actually is faster though.
I remember watching an SMV posted by Hero that shows him jumping over the speed blocks, shooting (with wave), and speed balling through the door, all without losing horizontal speed. Wouldn't this method be faster than any of the above?
I remember watching an SMV posted by Hero that shows him jumping over the speed blocks, shooting (with wave), and speed balling through the door, all without losing horizontal speed. Wouldn't this method be faster than any of the above?
He did not have max-speed while mockballing, but the probability that it is faster is pretty high.
The name of the smv sure did give me false hope, the phenomenom is kinda particular anyhow.
Taco and I just finished Kraid and managed to improve the fight by about 40 frames.
Allow me to explain how:
Upon shooting Kraid, he first opens his mouth for about 3-4 frames, closes it and waits about 60 frames before he opens it again. But if a missile is fired during this 3-4 frame gap, Kraid will open his mouth almost without any delay at all. Thus allowing the supermissiles to be fired way earlier.
This is somewhat a "mini-WIP"; the discovery is well worth the mention.
Enjoy.
Damn, that's a nice one great job.
I have some suggestions for improvements on this small part though. You didn't seem to have any problems with health, so trying to manipulate the small energyball into a missile (might be hard while still getting the somewhat rare big energy ball from the skree) would save time if you succeed. The mockball to spazer beam can be improved by using a missile to shoot the block there, instead of using a normal beam shot (I think you know about that). After spazer you could take a damageboost from one of the spikes coming from the cactus while still grabbing a super missile, you only need to manipulate it so that it shoots them fast enough.
In the first room of kraid I'm pretty sure you can save a frame or two by after unmorphing after the mockball use LR to aim up and as you press up to stand shoot at the same time. This gives the shot a boost in either speed or position, which I don't know.
That's about it.
I have some suggestions for improvements on this small part though. You didn't seem to have any problems with health, so trying to manipulate the small energyball into a missile (might be hard while still getting the somewhat rare big energy ball from the skree) would save time if you succeed. The mockball to spazer beam can be improved by using a missile to shoot the block there, instead of using a normal beam shot (I think you know about that). After spazer you could take a damageboost from one of the spikes coming from the cactus while still grabbing a super missile, you only need to manipulate it so that it shoots them fast enough.
We are very well aware of these improvements, unfortunately certain conditions did not allow us to execute these tricks:
Getting below 30 energy will make all monsters drop energy, until you have above 50 energy again. Thus a missile was impossible to manipulate.
No missiles = no missile on the debris (obviously).
The cactus is a bit tricky, there is a margin of frames you can manipulate until the trick does not save time anymore, unfortunately, none of these gave us the wanted the result.
So we had to cut back some, while still achieving good results =)
The cactus is a bit tricky, there is a margin of frames you can manipulate until the trick does not save time anymore, unfortunately, none of these gave us the wanted the result.
Well since you are optimizing for ingame time, you could perhaps change it's pattern by inducing lag at the door after getting spazer, or by simply pressing away the "spazer get" message box some frames later.
Kriole wrote:
Getting below 30 energy will make all monsters drop energy, until you have above 50 energy again. Thus a missile was impossible to manipulate.
The cactus is a bit tricky, there is a margin of frames you can manipulate until the trick does not save time anymore, unfortunately, none of these gave us the wanted the result.
Well since you are optimizing for ingame time, you could perhaps change it's pattern by inducing lag at the door after getting spazer, or by simply pressing away the "spazer get" message box some frames later.
Or use that reverse tech Taco found where you shot at the door or something to save that 1 realtime frame at the spazer door.. unlikely but worth trying.. o.o
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Kriole wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
behold! a white drayon
The name of the smv sure did give me false hope, the phenomenom is kinda particular anyhow.
Yeah sorry for the filename, it was made while I was attempting to find a way to one round draygon. In case anybody didn't know, the grapple beam causes draygon to come to a complete stop while the beam passes through him. It allows for more missiles to hit him because the weapon cooldown period is less of a factor while he is standing still.
As for the mini wip, it looks pretty solid. It is unfortunate that you guys did not have a better supply of missiles. Many of the intentional slow downs in my run are still present here (~30 frames I estimate). The unmorph before the mini kraid room comes to mind, along with the other two big ones that cpadolf already mentioned. I don't really have a remedy, but I know it is possible to play up to kraid with a better ammo supply. It would require you to play from phantoon again, so I imagine that is out of the question.
Was it faster to boost off the mini kraid spike? If I recall it would be quicker to just jump underneath it.
Lol, I think I made one of the two parts of the Super Missile blow up while the second one kept going, at least an explosion appears at the back of the super but it keeps going and opens a door. Similarly you can make it look like the missile blows up in thin air if you shoot it a little earlier, I think this is because the projectile goes of screen and the explosion stops traveling forward.
12
I'd like to introduce Edgehogging:
It's a trick that is both incredibly ugly, rarely useful AND pretty obvious. (Actually surprised noone else has thought of it =/)
By comparing these two smv's, at pre-pre botwoon, one of the few places where this trick actually is really useful:
With EdgehoggingWithout Edgehogging
you can see that edgehogging in this particular place saves 4 frames. In other commonly used places it saves about ~1 frame every application. The reason to why it saves 4 frames here is because the difference in vertical speed is huge, since the roof is so low that you have barely any room to jump. Edgehogging treats samus as if she would be falling the whole time, thus getting max vertical speed once the bombblock is cleared.
Cpadolf wrote:
I think I made one of the two parts of the Super Missile blow up while the second one kept going, at least an explosion appears at the back of the super but it keeps going and opens a door.
This happened to me while TASing the Super Metroid Gravy hack (I think it was). The super missile passed through a Super Missile block, and opened a red door behind it.
This happened to me while TASing the Super Metroid Gravy hack (I think it was). The super missile passed through a Super Missile block, and opened a red door behind it.
Making the Super pass through the block was done deliberately, I thought it would be the best way to open that door without wavebeam (which it was, until proven otherwise), what surprised me was that the missile started to explode without stopping or actually exploding, which I have never seen before.
And about the edgehogging. Yeah, that is pretty obvious, pretty ugly, and not very useful... I have actually used it though (100% run), in the same room even by some odd chance. But not really for the same reason. When going down through the PB blocks when going to botwoon it reduced lag to keep yourself from jumping up to the roof before starting to fall, and "endgehogging" was used to gain full speed before the blocks disappeared without that jump.
I'd like to introduce Edgehogging:
It's a trick that is both incredibly ugly, rarely useful AND pretty obvious. (Actually surprised noone else has thought of it =/)
With EdgehoggingWithout Edgehogging
A very old technique I actually used pretty often in my runs (you can see examples in the Redesign WIPs when entering Red Brinstar or Crocomire).
The reason it saves time is that you gain falling speed just like usual once you start doing this technique, despite that it keeps you at the same vertical position all the time. That way you will fall with max speed down, once the ground/crumble block/door gets cleared.
My RBOv4 is done. Actually first ever TASed RBO which is finished. And my first ever TASed run of Super Metroid which I finished. Doubleyay.
Get it here
Level of optimization is kinda... ok I guess. You may ask yourselves why the fudge I pick up so many energy tanks. That's because they barely cost any ingame time to pick up, and save me the hassle of wtf-optimizing stuff. (Without the Kraid E-tank I'd have to make the Metroids in Tourian drop atleast 55 energy each, where the highest I got after about 2 hours of work was 45)
The finish time is just over 34 minutes. Sub-30 might be possible with tons of optimization. Let's see what I and Taco muster in our upcoming RBO.
Please don't badger me about things being improvable. Cause I obviously did not spend much time on this run. (I picked it up 2 days ago, redid after Ridley because of energy-issues)
Well then. Enjoy =)
