Well, glad someone finally took this up. Another few weeks and I would have done it myself.
Anyways, some comments...
So sidehopping is faster...interesting. I trust that you'll make sure to test all modes of transport to see which is fastest.
Some interesting camera angles used in that avi. They don't lose time, do they?
Mukki's TAS required creating a blank .fla file before it would play back, due to issues with Mupen64. I believe the anti-ds fixed that, but just to be sure, does your m64 require it?
So sidehopping is faster...interesting. I trust that you'll make sure to test all modes of transport to see which is fastest.
Of course.
Some interesting camera angles used in that avi. They don't lose time, do they?
Nope, oddly...I don't even know how they happened.
Mukki's TAS required creating a blank .fla file before it would play back, due to issues with Mupen64. I believe the anti-ds fixed that, but just to be sure, does your m64 require it?
Mine does not require it.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
petrie911 wrote:
Mukki's TAS required creating a blank .fla file before it would play back, due to issues with Mupen64. I believe the anti-ds fixed that, but just to be sure, does your m64 require it?
After many different tests I figured out that what actually happened is Mukki started his run with a blank .fla in place. the difference between null filesave and an empty one caused enough frames difference to cause a problem, apparently. antids fixes this by always removing the savefile before starting a movie, before playing a movie and before loading a savestate (savestates include saveram data).
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
I think we can skip the Inverted Song of Time and save frames by a minor route change in cycles 1 and 3. I am listing the changes only to make it easier to read (those are the lines that start with a hyphen.) The time comparisons are approximate because I was only using the existing movie file and the console system to test some timing.
Cycle 1
- Make use of the spare time waiting for midnight to collect and deposit 99 more rupees (AKA has done this already, but getting the Adult Wallet in cycle 1 is not necessary.)
This will result in 4 extra screen transitions (about 3 seconds each for a total of about 12 seconds) and extra dialogue depositing the rupees (about 9 seconds.)
Cycle 2
- There are no changes to the route, but the Adult Wallet is obtained here which adds more dialog (about 6 seconds.)
So at the end of Cycle 2, we are about 27 seconds behind.
Cycle 3
- Start the cycle by going directly to the bank and withdrawing 200 rupees.
Skipping the East Clock Town treasure chest removes 2 screen transitions (about 6 seconds) and the dialog opening the chest (about 3.5 seconds.) Also, since depositing the rupees and getting the Adult Wallet is skipped since it happened earlier, that recovers about 15 seconds. Now we are only about 2.5 seconds behind.
The reason for doing this is that it saves about 40 Terminian minutes which will be useful later.
- Skip playing the Inverted Song of Time twice.
This saves about 30 seconds, but I can't claim about 4 seconds of that since it was already pointed out that the ISoT can be done faster. Now we are about 27.5 seconds ahead.
Since time is not slowed down, about 80 extra Terminian minutes pass. Since we were already ahead about 40 minutes, now we are behind 40 minutes. This causes Link to arrive at the Epona cutscene at about 3:32 AM instead of about 2:52 AM. Since the aliens take the cows at about 3:45 AM, there is just enough time to shoot the aliens. It is a tight fit, but I think it will work.
Well, the thing is, I'm not sure if I'm getting the ranch bottle this time...it might be faster to get the bottle off the beavers. I'd need to hear confirmation for this first, though as I'm not sure.
Also, any lost time during your route there will probably be gained through sidehopping anyway.
From Dragorn's 100% run, I get that from the Zora Cape Owl statue to getting the Beaver bottle is 5:11. From Mukki's TAS, the warp into Clock Town to getting the Ranch bottle is 4:06. Keep in mind that Mukki also collects two red rupees from Clock Town and the Field, while Dragorn goes straight for Waterfall Rapids. I think that even with optimization, the Ranch bottle wins. But you should try it yourself.
I'll go with the ranch bottle, then. It seems obviously faster, now that you've put it into perspective.
Here's my current WIP, with the first 3-day cycle done. I stopped recording after entering SCT because all that's left in this cycle is waiting for midnight.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/282771325/SL%20MM.m64
This WIP is 1,115 frames (18.58 seconds) faster than Mukki's run. I compared the times at entering the Trading Post, since everything after that doesn't have to be optimal.
Aside from more optimisation, this improvement came about through taking another route to WCT after going to day 3. It was notably faster than the way Mukki did it.
Thank god. If you had gone for the beavers, the viewers would have to stop watching your run to go look at paint dry, in order to keep entertainment high.
Very nice work SL, that looked tightly optimized for sure.
I made a mp4 encode of the wip for those who want it:
http://www.filedropper.com/swordlesslinkmmtaswip1
Covers everything from where you gain control in the woods. I didn't include the 3 minute intro cutscene.
Thanks for the encoding, Yautja. Maybe you could do it for later WIPs, if it's not too much trouble. =]
Anyway, I'm redoing the intentionally-suboptimal stuff to make it more entertaining. I'm not satisfied with that I previously had.
Is there a route posted anywhere for this run, or will it just follow Mukki's route now that I'm definitely getting the ranch bottle?
The route Mukki used should probably still be followed. Only possible changes would be rupee sources. Some of those 20r chests really seem like there's a better way.
EDIT: tried playing back the movie, desynched in Stock Pot Inn. I am using Jabo's 1.6 instead of Direct64, though. And you really should have used Jabo's 1.6, as it does the best job of rendering MM.
Thanks for the encoding, Yautja. Maybe you could do it for later WIPs, if it's not too much trouble. =]
If I'm around, and nobody else does it first, I will. It's really not much trouble since I can record while I watch and then it's just a quick encode. ;)
petrie911:
Only possible changes would be rupee sources. Some of those 20r chests really seem like there's a better way.
I am not a fan of those two chests either.
I believe that collecting and depositing 99 rupees in cycle 1 is faster than getting the two 20 rupee chests before Romani Ranch and the 50 rupee chest in South Clock Town after the Great Bay Temple.
Getting the rupees in cycle 1 is slower by 4 screen transitions, but the deposit is not slower since the one at the beginning of cycle 3 is skipped because the Adult Wallet is obtained in cycle 2.
The two 20 rupee chests each involve two mask changes and some dialog time, plus some additional time for being out of the way.
The 50 rupee chest has some dialog time and a number of seconds of additional time for being out the way. The mask change here doesn't count since it will be used either way.
This method also collects 9 more rupees which may not have to be luck manipulated from the shrubs.
Also, I wonder if it is possible to exit West Clock Town as the Deku Scrub using the glitch and save 2 screen transitions. If can get my computer to run Mupen64, I will try that out.
one option is to do Stone Tower before GBT. Light arrowing the blue bubbles in Gomess's hallway nets you 50r each, and there's 2 big magic jars in the crates outside Gomess's room. That's up to 200r right there.
In fact, here's a list of (fairly) quick sources of large amounts of rupees.
1) ECT chest--100r--takes time to jump over to it.
2) Inn: Spare Room--100r--Talk to Anju to get the room key. It has a 100r chest in it.
3) Inn: Anju's Room--100r--Only accessible on Night of the Third Day.
4) Zora Pot game--90r--Quite fast, but you only make one scheduled trip through South Bay.
5) Light Arrows--50r each--Many enemies drop 50r when killed with Light Arrows. Blue bubbles are your most likely target for this
6) Termina Field tree--40r--that one tree near the observatory with the guy in it has 40r stashed up there. Only problem is that it's out of the way
7) Moving bushes--20r--Destroy all of the moving bushes with one attack for a red rupee. Gilded Sword quickspin handles this nicely, and other attacks probably can, too.
8) Curio Shop--20r or 200r--Selling most bottled items at the curio shop nets you 20r. Big Poes, Chateau, and Gold Dust net you 200r.
9) Takkuri--200r--That bird has a ton of HP, though, but I think it goes down to two Gilded Sword jumpslashes.
That's all I can think of for now. Also keep in mind that bushes can drop red rupees, so you can manipulate for that, too.
And you really should have used Jabo's 1.6, as it does the best job of rendering MM.
Glide 64 Napalm renders MM the best (maybe tied with jabo though, I forget, but it's openGL so that's a plus, and it supports hi-res textures too so.. :P). I don't know what I can get this run to sync with though, since I just watched the encode (thanks YautjaElder), but I wouldn't be opposed to making encodes of future WIPs (starting a week from now) if Yautja isn't around or whatever :)
Anyway, sweet improvements so far, eagerly awaiting the rest!
Hmm, I just downloaded Glide64 Napalm, and it has some issues. Here's a breakdown of the most common issues, which even the collector's edition gets wrong (that's right, even Nintendo can't emulate the N64 correctly).
Zora Mask scene--The Zora Mask acquisition scene is often rendered incorrectly. The band members should not be visible until their spotlights come on.
Glide64 Napalm-Incorrect
Jabo's 1.6--Correct
Collector's Edition--Incorrect
Zelda's Lullaby scene--Most graphics plugins are unable to render this scene.
Glide64 Napalm--Unable
Jabo's 1.6--Able
Collector's Edition--Able
Carniverous plants--For some reason, almost everything renders these differently.
Glide64 Napalm--a little too light
Jabo's 1.6--about right. Slightly off.
Collector's Edition--Inexplicably pink.
Lustrous things--This also varies widely with plugin. Goron Link's Necklace is the most obvious example
Glide64 Napalm--too light
Jabo's 1.6--about right
Collector's Edition--actually renders it better than the original
Anyways, this was far more in depth than I expected. Also, I'm beginning to suspect that the problems I've been having with Glide64 might be caused by my system. So could one of you guys check if you have the same issues?
I didn't use Jabo 1.6 because it looks...wrong...on Vista, which is what I'm running. There're no shadows under Link, and other things aren't correct.
Also, my initial reaction to that list of fast rupees would be that STT first would be fastest. I wouldn't need to go out of the way to manipulate any rupees, since they'd be right in my path, and it would also look cool to see the last temple beaten before GBT.
What about the Gilded Sword, though? Wasn't there some discussion about not getting that at one point? It might still be worth it, since I'll be getting that bottle anyway for the Zora Eggs, but...
Anyway, last night, I finished the first cycle. Now to get the Goron Mask.
Great work with the TAS project so far (from what I can see). Sidehopping everywhere will greatly change the run, and it's length. I would hope my barrel roll is useable, but it looks like switching to and from Goron Mask takes too long...
can someone please upload this anywhere else? mediafire is a cunt
first it stops at 50% and now it refuses to start the download
In a few days, when I finish cycle 2, my friend's gonna properly encode it for me and I'm putting it on YouTube. I dunno if that's too long of a wait, though. Try clearing your cache and downloading again.
I'm no zelda (nor TAS) expert but it looks fun and impressive to me :) keep it up! (same for previous in-town part :P)
Thanks. It's good to actually see some enthusiasm for this run. =]
Great work with the TAS project so far (from what I can see). Sidehopping everywhere will greatly change the run, and it's length. I would hope my barrel roll is useable, but it looks like switching to and from Goron Mask takes too long...
It will be optimally tested to check anyway, of course.
Also, it should be noted that I've only had 3 desynchs so far, in nearly 30 minutes of play. One was before gaining control of Deku Link after entering East Clock Town for the first time, and the others were both related to the scarecrow in West Clock Town. I'm seriously beginning to think that the claims of this game being overly-desynch-prone are largely exaggurated...
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Swordless Link wrote:
Also, it should be noted that I've only had 3 desynchs so far, in nearly 30 minutes of play. One was before gaining control of Deku Link after entering East Clock Town for the first time, and the others were both related to the scarecrow in West Clock Town. I'm seriously beginning to think that the claims of this game being overly-desynch-prone are largely exaggurated...
This is because of two things:
1. Mukki used normal mupen. I assume you're using antids-mupen?
2. Your PC is faster than Mukki's, I assume. Don't ask me why, but this seems to have an effect.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
