Note: A emulator with reset record capabilities is necessary to have when watching this run
Details of the run
Any% item collection
Low% item collection
No bosses fought
Aims for lowest realtime
Manipulates luck
Takes damage to save time
Abuses programming errors
Uses death as a shortcut
Is a rape
About the run
This is a completely new run which aims for the absolutely lowest realtime, aims to fight no bosses and it also finishes with the absolutely lowest possible number of items, 6. The run in general has been made possible by Kejardon, who discovered both the early tourian break in (though not as early as in this run) and the Motherbrain skip. You can read about his discovery in http://forum.metroid2002.com/index.php/topic,6016.0.html this thread, he has a big explanation on page 2, so go and read it. Entering Tourian without the speedbooster nor enough ammo for a CF was discovered by hero of the day, the mockball has a very big "boomerang" effect when turning around and then immediately turning back again which made him think that it was possible to use in order to get Samus lodged far enough into the door for the skip to work, and it evidently did. Note that any weird actions before entering a door, or entering a door in a seemingly suboptimal way is done to reduce door lag.
The run is completed in 00:12:35 ingame and in 22:01 in realtime (79271 frames). And you might want to fast forward the X-ray climbing when going in to tourian, it is about 3,5-4 minutes long.
Suggested Screenshot: 62065
Thanks to
Kejardon for discovering the glitches to make the run possible.
gstick for a making a testrun (10%) which was used as a reference in tourian.
And the rest. moozooh, Tonski, catnap222 Saturn, Kriole, Taco, JXQ, evilchen, namespoofer, Terimakasih, Michael Flatley, Frenom and possibly someone else I forgot.
Bisqwit: Creating AVI. Delaying the acception for the benefit of those who dislike quick publications.
this movie has the lowest percent, and should be called a low%.
The goal of this movie is not to collect as few items as possible. The goal of this movie is to complete the game as fast as possible, completely regardless of how many items are collected. If collecting more items would make the run faster, then it would collect more items.
It's just that in this particular case it so happens that the fastest possible completion time *also* implies the lowest possible object collection, as a side effect.
Classifying this as "low%" would mean that the primary goal of this run was to collect as few items as possible, while the speed was only a secondary goal. This is not so. The number of collected items is completely irrelevant, and the primary goal is to simply complete the game as fast as possible, regardless of the means. Thus "any%".
Satoryu: You are wrong, even for SDA. A low% or 100% can and will obsolete any slower any% run. It is not and never has been any different for real console speedruns or TASes. This run is an any% run that happens to beat the game with the lowest possible amount of items collected. It completely obsoletes the low% category (unless it is put into a specific category due to the utter brokenness of the glitches involved in it).
I can't remember of the top of my head if there was a low%/100% run that obsoleted a previous any% run at SDA before, but I think there was.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Warp is right, this is a any% run.
What needs to happen along side that is the low% run should list this as obsoleting it, and no more low% runs should be accepted unless a lower item collection percentage is reached.
I don't see why this is unclear.
so i am just the minority with a different viewpoint. that's what i thought. still, i don't agree with the naming scheme here. i do agree with Xkeeper, though, that this run should drop the percentage and just be labeled "glitched/NBMB/rape/etc." while other runs may use glitches, this run uses severe glitches that break the game. like in Circle of the Moon, both runs use the DSS glitch, but one immediately goes to Dracula, while the other does it the old fashioned way.
LLCoolDave wrote:
A low% or 100% can and will obsolete any slower any% run. It is not and never has been any different for real console speedruns or TASes.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
SDA does weird things for labeling their runs, and you linked a perfect example. The scheme here makes sense, and it will continue to do so if this run is listed as an any% glitched run.
I think that the LTTP glitch is too game-breaking to be a good comparison.
Castlevania:AOS is a better example, where he uses the wallslide glitch to skip half the game, and there's another run elsewhere without this trick.
The X-Ray Scoping glitch should be a separate category and it shouldn't be labelled as a % run at all. Let's be honest - him copying the save file to generate garbage data for Tourian was a minor trick at best and really only necessary because of the FIRST glitch.
X-Ray Scoping in Doors is a separate bug and should be treated that way.
I think that the LTTP glitch is too game-breaking to be a good comparison.
The X-Ray Scoping glitch should be a separate category and it shouldn't be labelled as a % run at all. Let's be honest - him copying the save file to generate garbage data for Tourian was a minor trick at best and really only necessary because of the FIRST glitch.
Thats like saying the the 0 star run and the upcoming OoT run (which uses a more game breaking glitch than this) shouldn't be labelled any%. If a run which aims for the absolute lowest number of frames to reach the completion sequence then it will always be labelled an any%. If there is another version then it can only be called a any% non-glitched.
from a logical and technical standpoint, this one should be replacing the older (non-100%) ones.
<_<
An observer can understand what mockball, armpumping, and glitching past the zebetites is doing. Secret worlds and warping past rooms completely defies game logic and makes no sense to an observer.
Another significant difference is that the previous runs don't skip any major spots of the game. The path to Tourian is blocked by the boss statue, and passing Mother Brain is required to blow up Zebes, so killing those 5 are clear objectives of the game. This run skips *all* of those.
All the runs abusing glitches is not relevant (again, since the glitches in Super Metroid are ubiquitous and ambiguous). So it won't help at all to label any or all of them as glitched. A true non-glitch run probably wouldn't even be applicable because of arguments of what counts and what doesn't.
Now stop misusing logic. >:|
MiraiGen wrote:
The X-Ray Scoping glitch should be a separate category and it shouldn't be labelled as a % run at all. Let's be honest - him copying the save file to generate garbage data for Tourian was a minor trick at best and really only necessary because of the FIRST glitch.
X-Ray Scoping in Doors is a separate bug and should be treated that way.
'a minor trick'? ;_;
Incidentally, I skipped Mother Brain before I skipped the statues to Tourian. Skipping the statues is by no means necessary for skipping Mother Brain, it's just a big plus because it means a completed NBMB run.
There are also other ways of getting out of the room. Originally I actually used the murder beam (NOT THE SPACE/TIME BEAM), spring ball, and a crystal flash to get outside of Mother Brain's room, years ago before the x-ray trick was found.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
haha okay, not a 'minor trick' but a minor trick in comparison to the door X-Raying. I misspoke.
The door tricking breaks the game so badly I believe it's a separate category of it's own.
Thats like saying the the 0 star run and the upcoming OoT run (which uses a more game breaking glitch than this) shouldn't be labelled any%. If a run which aims for the absolute lowest number of frames to reach the completion sequence then it will always be labelled an any%. If there is another version then it can only be called a any% non-glitched.
I didn't say that it should apply to other games, stop stretching my words. I said that THIS run of THIS game shouldn't have any sort of % label.
Super Metroid has such a huge collection of runs and this one deviates so far from that it should get it's own category, as Kej just said.
Ultimately it's difficult to say what's a glitch and what's simply an oversight (see the description of Biker Mice From Mars, for example). I don't think you can reasonably argue that the programmers intended for you to be able to roll at high speed in morphball form, however, given that your speed is sharply capped unless you perform a very precise set of motions (which also include negating the normal bounce from morphball form).
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
I found this very entertaining.
Am I the only one that started playing Caramelldansen during the x-ray scope section?
Also, when the escape sequence spontaneously started after the secret-worlds goofiness, I giggled at the thought of the game getting so glitched out that it started self-destructing. Congratulations, Samus - you've bent reality so badly that you made the freaking planet blow up. Well, I suppose that takes care of the space pirates at least...
I don't think you can reasonably argue that the programmers intended for you to be able to roll at high speed in morphball form, however, given that your speed is sharply capped unless you perform a very precise set of motions (which also include negating the normal bounce from morphball form).
Right, just like bomb jumping. That's clearly unintentional, you aren't supposed to be able to bomb jump as high as you want.
Oh wait, it's in the demos. XD
I should fess up a bit though.
The mockball has no code explicitly handling it, but there's also no code it actually *breaks*. It exists nicely within the game engine. Although, there are tons of small things that, if you changed them just slightly, would make mockball impossible.
Comparatively, a simple bomb jump from the ground actually is slightly glitchy, as seen from the fact you can spring jump from the height of a bomb jump occasionally (The glitch is that Samus's pose and movement type is not updated till the height of the bomb jump).
I like to think that some programmer at Nintendo actually found the mockball relatively early on, then carefully programmed the engine as time went on to keep it working. :D The point I want to make is it's basically impossible to say if the mockball is unintentional or not. You can't objectively decide what's glitched and what isn't. For that and other reasons, I still say that this run shouldn't be separated as 'Glitched', it should be separated as 'Uses secret worlds' or whatever equivalent there is.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
It depends on how much difference you put between all the minor glitches that get used in any SM-TASes by standard now, and the major, game-breaking out of room travelling ones like shown in this run. I still would recommend to put this run in the "glitched" category compared to all the other, legal ones, just so that the first-time watcher actually knows what to expect of the run. The out of room travelling glitch is just too major to be ignored as such one.
Alternatively, since it skips all bosses (unlike any other run), we could also just label it a "NBMB" (No-Boss-Mini-Boss) run, as mentioned before. And since a NBMB isn't even possible without the out of room travelling glitch, it would probably be ok to not even use the word "glitched" alongside with it in this case.
So in the end we could either call it "glitched any% / low%", or just "NBMB".
Labeling it "NBMB" implies to me that there is an any% that does fight bosses and is shorter -- that NBMB is a special goal. If anything, this should be any% and the old any%'s should be "YBMB" -- Yes-Boss-Mini-Boss :)
This run is certainly something else.
I would categorize it as Any% and warp glitch, personally. It's far too different from the other runs to obsolete them, I think. Super Metroid is a popular game and a popular series of videos for this site, and I really don't see the harm in having multiple videos if they're well-defined.
I also figured I'd explain the RAM glitch (at least to the best of my ability, I could be wrong).
"Warping" in this game only works if there's an actual path to follow. You can get through "blocked" paths (in the case of earlier in the run, the miniboss statue blockade) because the game's programming accepts that a pathway exists there.
Normally, you can't do this if there's no door at all, though. Mother Brain's room doesn't register a useable exit there, and attempting the glitch without the save trick will crash the game.
However, the game conveniently doesn't ever "wipe" path data, it only overwrites it as needed. So if you enter that room with pre-existing path data from somewhere else, then the glitch works. So using the backup save, entering that firefly room (which has the kind of path data needed) and then killing yourself conveniently keeps the path data in memory even after returning to the menu and loading a different game, and the rooms between the final save point and mother brain's room don't overwrite it.
...
There's a semi-detailed explanation here.
Your idea is kinda correct, except as far as blocking/requiring a path goes. Super Metroid has a list of doors for every room, and then door blocks that implement one of those doors. In the statue room, the door block used comes from the actual elevator - Samus's Y position 'loops' after 16 screens, at least as far as blocks are concerned.
In Mother Brain's room, there isn't a door block to implement the door leading past Mother Brain. So it has to be created by other data, and then Samus has to actually reach it.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
I've just watched it. The run is fast paced, the bugs were abused nicely imo even though the x-ray scope bug was long to perform but the result was interesting.
I didn't watch the any% run but the real % only.
I could say that one is even more interesting than the previous real% run.
I didn't watch many SM runs so far, it's been long time that I was waiting a sub 30 minutes run like this because I prefer short runs and now there is one.
I congratulate both authors(And other people involved) for their efforts on this run.
Okay, so yesterday a overlook in this run was discovered by Namespoofer, (who got the idea from Taco I believe) and that is that the Baby Metroid is skippable with the X-ray glitch (sadly, because that was my favorite part of the run...), I optimized it and it saved ~12 seconds over the currently published one. Similar tests where done to the metroid rooms but although at least the first one is skippable and others might be, the conclusion of mine and namespoofers tests where that none of the skips would be faster in the end. The first room could be faster with a skip if a closer accessible door transition was found but none where during our tests.
Here is a smv for the improved version, the only changes are the baby metroid room, the room before it and the room after it. The rest was hexed in. If there was any way to update the publication with this new run that would be good (and I think it would be a lot smoother than to re-submit the whole thing).
Sorry for the hassle.
Here is a smv for the improved version, the only changes are the baby metroid room, the room before it and the room after it. The rest was hexed in. If there was any way to update the publication with this new run that would be good (and I think it would be a lot smoother than to re-submit the whole thing).
Sorry for the hassle.
"Updating with the new SMV would be smoother"
Problems:
- New AVI needs to be made
- People who already have the AVI will probably get a tracker error due to the new AVI
- Everybody who is downloading or has downloaded the current movie will have to redownload everything without any warning as to why
- More (mostly related to it)
SMV changes are usually only done for minor tweaks in non-published movies... I really doubt resubmitting it will cause less of a hassle than this one.
This thread actually has a lot of great candidates for List of the Most Popular Excuses for not obsoleting a TAS, pretty funny stuff.
MiraiGen wrote:
Speak honestly - if we knew about the save-file garbage data and the X-Ray in a door shifting trick in the early days of TASing, wouldn't we still have an Any%, Low%, and 100% speedruns?
Just to help you out, you raised the worst possible question for supporting your point, one that opponents to your position would be eager to raise. Hint: it has to do with human nature.
Satoryu wrote:
or does no one listen to the n00b? (first time poster, long time lurker. very long time.)
I'm not complaining because it's natural and there's nothing to do about it, but I always find it interesting how you could make the same quality post on two different sites, with two different receptions, based solely on your seniority.
Twelvepack wrote:
SDA does weird things for labeling their runs, and you linked a perfect example. The scheme here makes sense, and it will continue to do so if this run is listed as an any% glitched run.
Here is what SDA does, and then you can decide which you think makes more sense. ;) I am biased of course, but I don't even think it's close. Also keep in mind that I am not at all advocating any of SDA's policies for anywhere else, including this site.
Instead of thinking like mutual independence, some categories are simply more restrictive versions of others. 6 (low) and 100 are percentages just like 18 (any). Similarly, single-segment is like segmented with one segment, and same for single-player vs multi-player. The restrictions are there to protect "interesting" categories.
This means that a faster run in a more restrictive category (like low%) will obsolete a slower run in the broader category (any%). Now, how do you label them? If you label as any%, then there will be no listed low%. Someone visiting could see the page and wonder if someone will make a low%, or what the lowest possible % is.
This is why SDA labels in the most restrictive category (single-player is an exception for now based on the history that over 99% of runs are single-player, so it's assumed). If the run is labeled as low%, then people will know it's there. Since it will also be the fastest time, and "low" is part of "any" after all, it is blatantly obvious that it also doubles as the any%.
I could draw a Venn diagram but I'm lazy and probably it isn't necessary anyway.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
I see the logic in it, but to me it is far more reasonable to list any% if time was the main objective. If low% is distinct from that, it may deserve its own category, but this is no longer the case.
The real trouble is that it isn't listed as obsoleting anything... this seems like the worst thing that could be done.
