Posted: 7/2/2008 1:51 AM
Post subject: Game list
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Dammit
Experienced player (590)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
The site could use a directory to tie together forum threads, the tricks pages on the wiki and movies for each game. This would deal with the following:
    * The ListOfIdeas page is high-maintenance and not very useful. * There's no list of games that haven't been TASed. * It's a hassle to track the movie history for games. * Superfluous threads get started in the forum because users don't know what's already there.
The idea, based on Aqfaq's work, is to list every game and link all related on-site info. The result is manageable because the table is re-sortable: I used this javascript to re-sort the tables, though tasvideos already has its own sorting function. Here is a mockup of the SNES directory. It only has a few titles, and I added fake entries for illustration. The no-intro naming convention was used here, but GoodSNES or the NSRT database would also work. The CSS and icons are copied from tasvideos.org/css. Sorry if the html is unclean. I'm not a web designer and I don't have webspace. If someone wants to put them up for easier viewing, go ahead. Conventions, subject to change:
    * One game per line; one line per game. * The name of the version mandated by the rules (usually USA) goes in the title column. * Versions with different names go in the alternate names column.
      * Included a version without this column.
    * Versions with the same name for different regions are omitted. * Non-good dumps (overdumps and other trash) are omitted. * Hacks and unlicensed games are omitted by default. Only approved hacks show up. (Editor's discretion) * For unTASed games, bad choices are in red and good ones are blue. (Editor's discretion) * Some games have a zillion forum threads. Only link the big ones. (Editor's discretion) * The movie field links all published movies and all non-obsoleted movies if some have been obsoleted. * If the game has only gruefood submissions, those are linked instead of movies.
A site robot could easily autogenerate the movie links if each game had an ID in the database. The submission form could even be simplified to just show a list of games to pick from. Each TAS-ready platform would get a similar page.
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:52 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Yes, please. Would be a bit of work to make and maintain, but the benefit would justify the cost. Also, here's links to them you can use in lieu of downloading the zip: With alternate names Without
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:57 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
This looks very nice. I would like something like this to be implemented.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 7/2/2008 5:14 PM
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Soulrivers
Former player
Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Loving it. If this could be automated, it would be an invaluable addition to the site.
My published movies [03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ... [03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ? [03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes! [03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
Posted: 7/2/2008 5:22 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Even if it can't be automated, I would be willing to help maintain it.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 7/2/2008 8:55 PM
Post subject: Re: Game list
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2479)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
The idea is nice.
Dammit wrote:
For unTASed games, bad choices are in red and good ones are blue.
But aren't links blue too? How about green?
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:52 PM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
I also like this idea, it would make a very convenient way to find things, especially forum posts. I would also be willing to help keep it updated if it wasn't an automatic process.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:12 AM
Post subject: Re: Game list
Quote
klmz
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
NES TASer of 2018 GBA TASer of 2018 GBA TAS of 2016 Lucky TAS of 2016 GBx TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2007
Aqfaq wrote:
But aren't links blue too? How about green?
A few people (most of them are men) can't distinguish green text from red text well.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:16 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
How does red-green color blindness really work? Is it that if you have green text on red background you just *can't see* the text, or is it that you can distinguish the text but you can't say if the text is green or red (and the same for the background color)? In the former case, wouldn't it depend heavily on the *brightness* of the text compared to the background? I don't believe red-green color blindness makes you blind to brightness differences too.
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:02 PM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
More than you ever wanted to know about colorblindness Now please, back on topic about the awesome idea that dammit proposed.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:37 PM
(Edited: 7/6/2008 3:42 AM)
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Dammit
Experienced player (590)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Here's an extension to the good game/bad game idea. Add a pair of columns: Thumbs up: good game to TAS Thumbs down: bad game to TAS (blank fields if the game already has a movie) Site users vote by clicking their choice. The game is dynamically designated good or bad depending on the numbers. Red titles, orange titles or missing titles are absent from the submission form list. For example, to avoid the hassle of judging obscure stuff, Bisqwit can set a strict threshold, so that unknown games are bad until proven popular enough to be good. This would also obviate all those wish list threads. Edit: diction (how easy it is to sound hostile) Flagging bad games a priori reduces the workload for judges and helps players avoid wasting their time on a game no one cares about. Edit: explanation
Posted: 7/6/2008 3:37 AM
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Xkeeper
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Dammit wrote:
If, for example, Bisqwit doesn't want to to deal with the hassle of judging obscure stuff, he can set a strict threshold, so that unknown games are bad until proven popular enough to be good. This would also obviate all those wish list threads. Edit: diction
But then what about games that are relatively unknown? I could see this as becoming an interesting thing to look at, but relying on it to gauge the actual potential popularity of a run would be a horrible idea. And then there are bad games that get funnier with good TASes, like Dark Castle and skipping the entire thing.
Perma-banned
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:05 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I still have my doubts of whether we should be judges of what people will find a "boring game" and want not. I'd estimate that to 90% of all the people, at least 90% of the already published movies are boring because the game looks boring and uninteresting. We can't just go and unpublish all those games simply because most people find them boring. They are still valuable. There's always a "niche market" for most games. There will always be someone who will like to see the TAS for that game, no matter how "boring" it might feel to the rest. Heck, if someone saw the trouble of making a TAS of a game, it usually means that at least *some* people like the game (eg. because they played it a lot in their childhood), or at least would like to see a TAS of the game. If someone has already made a TAS for a game, and the TAS itself is of good quality, why should we deny this "niche market" their TAS? Why should we be the judges of this? I do understand if this is a question of money: Publishing more huge AVI files may cost someone money, so we should only publish the very best and popular. OTOH, is this really the issue, or are we simply trying to keep some kind of "high quality" to the content of the site by selecting what we find "interesting" and what "boring?
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:35 AM
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Dammit
Experienced player (590)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
My point was not about the morality of acceptance or rejection, or conserving site resources. Those are separate problems. It's about knowing what the audience wants. Making a TAS is a huge amount of work. Huge. It's easy to say, "just TAS whatever you want," or "every game should have a TAS," until it gets down to the work of making them. When a well made TAS gets ignored, that shows a serious disconnect between the maker and the watchers. Even if it doesn't get rejected. The TAS maker needs to know how popular the games to pick them judiciously. If you ask for opinions in the forum, you might get a few enthusiastic replies but that's not a good measure of how wanted the work is. Take out the guesswork. If it also saves judge work and bandwidth, that's an incidental bonus. I don't want to belabor this point, which is just an extension to the original idea of a full gamelist. And thanks for the hosting alden.
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:52 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Dammit wrote:
The TAS maker needs to know how popular the games to pick them judiciously. If you ask for opinions in the forum, you might get a few enthusiastic replies but that's not a good measure of how wanted the work is. Take out the guesswork.
Apparently, that's also dependent on how badly does the author want to see teh result themselves. Situations where an author would make a movie but not even submit it are numerous, and show no such disconnection. This suggests two completely different goals and motivation resources: 1) either you make a movie in order to get acknowledged and have a good movie as a consequence, 2) or you make a movie you want to see yourself and have people's acknowledgement of your effort as a consequence. There are players who know the games they're TASing aren't popular, or even purposefully TAS unpopular games. They don't have this problem. Basically, rating the games themselves might not be that bad a thing, but it can lead to unwanted results, such as unpopular games driven way further away from players (a very bad thing, actually), or, for instance, provoke some ego-related problems. I don't know. If a player doesn't want to make a movie in the first place, why force oneself? If they do want, do they also need a warrant from the audience?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:57 AM
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upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (391)
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Posts: 1802
Sega TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TASer of 2007
moozooh wrote:
Basically, rating the games themselves might not be that bad a thing, but it can lead to unwanted results, such as unpopular games driven way further away from players
Perhaps this could be avoided if the "bad idea for a TAS" color was reserved for games that have had TASes rejected due to poor game choice?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:16 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Well, I'm afraid that would likely prevent things like the Excitebike phenomena occuring in the future, which I, for one, wouldn't want. If you remember, we had a run submitted (by FODA, iirc) and even published before Luke submitted his groundbreaking version. If FODA's run was submitted today without Luke's/JXQ's versions, it would likely be rejected as a bad game choice. Basically, what I don't want is site-endorsed game limitations based on unstable opinions that can change depending on what one can possibly do with a game (which is yet unknown).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:19 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
I think it should only stress the positive movies, and games that would be labeled "bad game choice" would simply not be labeled as "totally awesome". There are clearly movies that are interesting to a broader audience, so that should be indicated, but I don't think it's appropriate to label movies as "boring"
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:25 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
The point is, you don't need to stress widely popular games in the first place. They're already popular enough.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:16 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Not necessarily wildly popular games, but I think it would be useful to mark some lesser known games that have better than average movies. I'm thinking stuff like Legacy of the Wizard, Biker Mice from Mars, Umihara Kawase... Those movies are very good in my eyes, but I only really watched them out of boredom rather than saying "Ooh! Legacy of the Wizard!" It would not be limiting anything, only helping viewers get the most out of the site.
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 7/11/2008 12:47 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Goshh, There's two exercice on the page Color Blindness of Wikipedia that I can't see O_o
Posted: 7/11/2008 6:48 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Turn your monitor on. But seriously, monitor colours can seriously screw up those tests by altering the colours even slightly. Go to a doctor or something if you want to be really tested.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 7/13/2008 2:25 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Actually, my girlfriend can see it. hum and I was wrong on what I type, there's one exercice that I can't see. By my girlfriend do.