FractalFusion's Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow GBA in 53:17. Unlike the previous Splinter Cell GBA, this game is better at implementing stealth elements, but is nothing compared to console versions.
Watch at least to the third level. The real action starts then.
This run uses VBA v19.2, but should work on v20.

Aims

  • Uses no predefined saves
  • No death (i.e. mission failure)
  • Uses speed/entertainment tradeoffs
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Abuses programming errors in the game
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Manipulates luck
I chose no death for esthetic reasons. Dying refills health and ammo.

Programming errors abused

  • The "It's not time for this now" glitch. If, when you enter a new area in front of a door, you press up when scripted dialogs are supposed to take place, instead the dialogs are replaced with the "It's not time for this now" dialog, but you can move around. Nothing moves except you; enemies do not move, ground turrets do not shoot, and cameras do not move and cannot see you. However, wall turrets can shoot and do not move. Guards fall in one melee to the front, which is strange since it normally takes two or more. The A button (jump) cancels this dialog, returning action to normal, unless you subsequently press up at another door which triggers a "Hide the body, Fisher!" or "This door is locked..." event, in which case the dialog is stuck until you enter a new area. Note that elevators may go within the same area.
  • Grabbing something (pole or ledge) while falling, or falling on an enemy, will cancel fall damage. In one place it is even possible to take no damage from a fall without doing the above.
  • If the ceiling is low enough, bumping Sam's head will cause him to run in midair and be able to jump again while in midair. By repeatedly jumping, it is possible to float over mines that would otherwise have to be bypassed by shimmying on the ledge, which is slow.
  • Whenever Sam lowers from a tucked position while on a horizontal pole, his legs cannot be seen or trip any lasers. This does not apply when going to a tucked position.
  • There are other little glitches but they are not so important.

Luck manipulation

  • Pressing down and up on the spot manipulates locks, safes, binary codes, turret wires, and other stuff.

No death

  • "MISSION FAILED"
  • Death restores health to 10HP and ammo to 10 if less than 10. I believe there are parts which would be made faster using death.

About the game and the run

Unlike the previous GBA installment, this one is more polished and incorporates stealth better. It even has some of the trial-and-error feel of the console versions. This game has a habit of slapping you with "MISSION FAILED" if you run around killing enemies mindlessly. Strangely, enemies have slow reaction so it is easy to run up and grab someone from behind, and there still are ways to hide from SWAT guards if you set off an alarm (but not fail).
Things that are different about this game compared to the previous:
  • The biggest change is that you can't just run by enemies now. You have to terminate them or bypass them using an overhead pole or the back wall.
  • You can now do a barrel roll (slower than running though). You can also do a jump while rappelling.
  • You can use back-to-wall. Advantage: You can bypass some enemies and hide in the shadows. Disadvantage: The game forces you to use back-to-wall sometimes.
  • You cannot OHKO directly from behind anymore. Instead, you end up grabbing them. It is usually faster to shoot them or punch them in front.
  • There is no alarm bar anymore. In levels 1, 2, 5, and 6, setting off an alarm will result in mission failure. In others, SWAT guards run around. They are the hardest enemies to kill (3 head shots), although falling from a height onto them works well.
  • In those same levels above (in at least part of the level), killing anyone will result in mission failure. You can still shoot them if it doesn't kill, but there is a glitch where if you shoot but not kill someone and grab them from behind, then when you knock them out, you get "MISSION FAILED".
  • Some enemies (or a group of enemies) are VIPs. They either hold "important" information or can (and usually must) be used for retinal scanners. If you terminate (kill or KO) them before you obtain the information or make them use the scanner, you are hit with "MISSION FAILED". It does not matter how useless this information actually is.Fortunately, it is not necessary to obtain the information.
  • You can shoot upwards at an angle from the ground, and you can shoot out cameras. You can also shoot downwards from a horizontal pole.
  • Ground turrets no longer take half-health; instead they now do continuous damage with no recovery. By jumping correctly, the worst you can suffer is 2 damage. They are also much faster to disarm. Damage checks only occur every 8 frames.
  • Wall turrets are like cameras, except that they run off a rectangular detection box that suddenly activates at a critical point, unlike camera detection triangles which gradually grow and shrink. They also fire, doing 3 damage. Damage checks only occur every 8 frames.
  • Night vision and thermal vision can be used anytime. Thermal vision is much more beautiful now and hidden ammo on the back wall shows up (as well as lasers and mines) in this view. It is necessary to use thermal vision for one part of the first level. Any other usage of thermal or night vision is for esthetic (or bizarre) reasons.
  • The flash grenade now replaces the smoke grenade. What it does is stun guards (that aren't masked). Useful for VIPs.
  • There are now three computer-hacking minigames.
    • File Link-up: Tile-turning puzzle game. Can be done fast.
    • Binary codes: There are sequences of 0s and 1s and you have to align them correctly. Comes in 1, 2, or 3 rows. Can be done fast depending on where the 0s and 1s are. The codes are either given by allies or enemy VIPs (but it is only necessary to know what the codes are).
    • Falling sequences: It's like DDR, but 25 times easier. And it fails. 2 or 3 rows (10 or 15 symbols). Takes at least half a minute, and cannot be sped up (apart from getting them right).
  • There is a grip-vertical-pole animation, which slows down the process of jumping up vertical poles.
  • Enemies (except SWATs) now have an intermediate stage of alertness, a level between "nothing wrong" and "seen you".

Strategies

The fastest way to terminate an enemy is to drop from a height onto him. Next fastest is to shoot him. Unlike the previous, some enemies take more than one head shot to kill. When firing, wobbling cancels gun animations. It is possible to use friendly fire to take down enemies. Failing that (or when not allowed), it is possible to melee some enemies, or grab them from behind and knock them out, but it takes a long time.
Although guards may detect something is behind them, their reaction is so bad that you can usually grab them anyway, so it doesn't matter if you run behind them.
There are a few ways to set off alarms in this game:
  • Let any enemy run to an alarm panel and use it.
  • Walk in view of a camera (the sticky cam view shows the camera's view).
  • Touch any infrared lasers (the base of the lasers is visible; the thermal vision shows the lasers).
  • Let any spotlight see you.
  • Let any "window guards" see you.
  • Let any camera see a body.
  • Let any enemy see a body and run to an alarm panel and use it.
  • Exit a room with a conscious enemy around which saw you (except special event).
  • Exit a room when a camera can see a body (except special event).
  • Exit a room when any enemy can see a body (except special event).
There is also a scripted alarm late in the game.
When an alarm goes off, either the mission fails or SWAT guys run around. These guys are hard to terminate and spawn every time I enter a new room so I don't just go around setting off alarms.
Health is very important. Sam has 10HP maximum. There are some health refills, and they do not take as long to use as in the first game. Here is a list of what causes damage to Sam:
  • Weak embassy guards: 1 damage
  • Ground turrets: 1 damage (ignores recovery)
  • Guards during sniper minigame: 1 damage (ignores recovery)
  • Blue guards: 1 damage
  • Yellow guards: 2 damage
  • Mini SWAT guards: 2 damage
  • Jerusalem police: 2 damage (melee does 1 damage)
  • Firebombers: 3 damage (kick does 2 damage)
  • Flamethrowers: 3 damage
  • Assault rifle guards: 3 damage
  • Alarm SWAT guards: 3 damage
  • Wall turrets: 3 damage
  • Mine explosions: 3 damage
  • Damaging fall: 3 damage
  • Falling off the bottom of the screen: instakill
If a damaging fall occurs, a landing animation is forced where Sam cannot move, wasting time. I never use damaging falls in this run.
Here is what damage Sam can cause to enemies:
Enemy (6HP)Head shotLow shotMeleeKillKO
Civilians666-1 melee
Embassy guards6631 head shot2 melees
Blue guards6331 head shot2 melees
Yellow guards6321 head shot3 melees
Jerusalem police3212 head shots1 head shot, 1 low shot, 1 melee
Firebombers6221 head shot2 low shots, 1 melee
Mini SWAT guards3022 head shots3 melees
Assault guards3022 head shots3 melees
SWAT guards2003 head shots-
For those who care, here are the stats given by the game at the end of each level:
leveltimebulletsalarmsKOskills
Embassy 15:4470370
Embassy 24:15170269
Subway3:06331121
Saulnier6:083171735
Jerusalem1:3814083
Warehouse7:24370141
Shipyard8:367061062
Submarine1:33193118
TV Station3:48526630
Bold means that alarm = mission failure.
Note that the times do not count when dialogs and "It's not time for this now" glitches are active. For example, by careful use of the glitch, one can obtain "impossible" stats for the Jerusalem level as in the image on the right like I did once (unassisted). The actual time was significantly longer than the actual time in the TAS.

Run notes

Embassy 1 (no alarms, no kills)

  • If the guards are facing away, beating them up takes about the same time as grabbing and knocking them out.
  • The civilians always run to an alarm panel if they can. It is possible (although requires pixel accuracy) to knock them out just before they run off. You can't melee anyone who is running away from you. It is also possible to knock them out from behind without grabbing them right when they reach the alarm panel.
  • I have to take one damage every time I melee a guard from the front.
  • Some animations are messed up like running right after smacking the head of the scanner guard, and picking up Shetland's laptop from this... ...far away.
  • The "It's not time for this glitch" in action. Notice how they just stay there after being hit, and when I deactivate the glitch, they all react with sound.
  • I had to avoid the swing from the last guard since I had 1 HP left.

Embassy 2 (no alarms, no kills until last part)

  • The spotlights are very sensitive to your presence.
  • Entering doors resets enemy and camera positions.
  • The jump button cancels the "It's not time for this now" glitch, but if I press up on a door (other than the one I used to trigger the glitch) which I can't enter, the glitch lasts until I leave the area.
  • I did a sudden run behind a civilian VIP (binary code guy) which made him move forward enough so I could use the computer. It is faster than grabbing him and being forced to listen to info. Had he seen me, there is no way to avoid "MISSION FAILED".
  • Yay, I finally get to kill guards now.

Subway

  • Time for a killfest. Since I need to harvest ammo, I gather most of the ammo boxes, even the hidden ones.
  • Because the turret was on the platform, I managed to take just 1 damage.
  • I can't set off alarms because of the inconvenient places where the SWAT guards spawn.
  • It is possible to set off mines but not take any damage, even when not blinking.
  • I deactivate one turret because otherwise I don't have enough health.
  • The rest of the level is straightforward.

Saulnier

  • Friendly fire is useful for this level.
  • q2938tbv 8n7rt8ho24pawyw8h stupid minigames.
  • I enter the computer room on the 3rd floor when the alarm times out, because it is painful otherwise (there is a code VIP in the room, not to mention the scanner VIPs outside). I also manage to position bodies so the camera cannot see them.
  • Same with another computer room later on. This computer unlocks a door and also shuts off the lasers outside.
  • I intentionally set off an alarm because I have to run past vertical lasers anyway.
  • After the computer with the stupid minigame and the dialog, I jump as far right as I can but then the game controls me to walk to the door. In fact, I needed the alarm to turn off so that the SWAT guard disappears. Otherwise, he blocks and then kills you while Sam tries to walk to the door.
  • The high laser mounts must be barrel-rolled under and the low laser mounts must be jumped over to avoid an alarm.
  • In the place where F. Coldeboeuf (the phone guy) is, I need to grab him from behind or it is mission failure. I can't even try to grab him when he goes for the "mission failure alarm panel" because I punch him instead (i.e. mission failure). That's why I can't enter when the alarm is going. It is possible to grab him from the right so Sam misses the phone entirely on the way out (but it's slower and not worth it). At least you see an unexpected event during the walk-out scene.
  • Lasers do trigger alarms even during the "It's not time for this now" glitch. I press up to climb a pole because jump clears the glitch, and I need to avoid a SWAT guard (he doesn't spawn if you reach the spawn area fast enough).
  • I used the flash grenade I picked up at the beginning just for show, because I can. :|

Jerusalem (no alarms, no kills except the beginning)

  • The first three guys are turret info VIPs (like the info is in any way critical), so I skip the first one and kill the others.
  • After the first objective, I cannot kill anyone. The blue enemies can be KOed with a head shot, low shot, and melee.
  • After the Dahlia Tal part, I have to shoot the cameras or else they see the body and an alarm goes off. Also, the last one since otherwise there is the "Hide the body, Fisher!" dialog.
  • I take pictures as soon as possible. I can take them as bad as possible, but for sanity value, I only did it on the last one.

Warehouse (no alarms, no kills except the "kill Dahlia" part)

  • It is possible to pass Dahlia Tal, but only by using the back wall, and when there is enough room.
  • Somehow, there is a part where, if you don't look back to the left and continue after passing Dahlia, you magically fail the mission.
  • The firebombers are not permitted to be killed, so I must use two low shots and a melee (if I can't fall on them or grab them from behind).
  • Sam's legs can pass through the lasers without setting off an alarm when he lowers them from a tucked position on the horizontal pole.
  • I use the drop shortcut where the turret is underneath. I must grab the ledge or I die.
  • In fact, in the "kill Dahlia" part, it is possible to beat this part just by running to the end door before she does. Of course, it is slower.

Shipyard

  • This is the longest level in the game.
  • I need an insane amount of ammo. Also a flash grenade for the scanner VIPs near where Shetland is waiting. I don't enter the first health room in this section because it means deactivating "the glitch".
  • In the narrow space up top, I can repeatedly jump to float over the mines.
  • While TASing the game, I stumbled across the most unexpected death ever (AVI: [1]).Basically, if a flamethrower is firing on you while you use the door which is supposed to lead you to victory, you end up with defeat instead, despite what the dialog says. It is one of the few times that a game has owned me while I was TASing it. It's supposed to be the other way around.
  • Now this part is the classic "run back and forth getting items" that plagues many games.
  • Health is very important, especially for this part. There are a few fixed wall turrets and cameras that takes too long to pass (shimmying on the ledge takes too long). Also, every time I drop, I try to drop on an enemy (one reason why I set off an alarm after getting the first card) so I don't take fall damage.
  • The going in and out of tuck position on the horizontal poles was so that the SWAT guards don't see me in a bad position.
  • Time for sniping. Too bad it's the only one in the game. It's hard enough to snipe all those guys in 2:00, but with TAS power, I do it in 15 seconds.
  • The guys near the freezer door (with the turret nearby) are turret info VIPs. I don't even take one out because that means an alarm later on which makes life too difficult.

Submarine

  • Surprisingly short TAS level. In a couple of places, there are two routes: one which is short and you are forced to set off alarms, and the other which is long and requires you to go through an area with mines and turrets, and you still set off alarms unless you use a computer with who knows what on it, or a retinal scanner.
  • I wanted to use thermal vision here but the lag was too bad (extra laser sprites caused lag).
  • After the visible ammo box and grenade box is a code VIP, so I used the newly-obtained flash grenade to prevent him from shooting me while I pass on the back wall.

TV Station

  • One really hard level done fast.
  • The guys near the beginning that look like SWAT guards are mini-SWAT guards. They only take 2 head shots to kill.
  • After the elevator, the three guards are code VIPs. I leave the first one.
  • OK, Ingrid (as an ally) is a shooter whom no enemy wants to kill. That makes absolutely no sense. Anyway, if she turns around and shoots, that shot is worth two normal shots. In other words, it does twice as much damage.
  • In the room where Ingrid leaves, the three guards in the bottom are code VIPs. I only shoot one and knock out the others since I need a lot of ammo (and health) for later.
  • That part, with three SWAT guards and a code VIP. I kill the one SWAT guard I cannot avoid, and avoid all the rest, taking damage.
  • Where I can plant the wall mines on the machine for a scene, I skip it instead. The scene is funny, though (AVI: [2]).
  • I can't get Sadono right away (the game won't let me), but I kill all the mini-SWATs, enter the door, and get him then.
That's it for the comments!

[1][2]: [dead links removed]. These are not part of the run.

FractalFusion: Hi! I am a TASer. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. Here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.


NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. Oh! I also corrected the ROM name.
  • You indicated Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell - Pandora Tomorrow (U) (M3).gba
  • I updated it to Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell - Pandora Tomorrow (U) (M3) [f_5].gba

FractalFusion: Looks like you have the wrong ROM. Try again.
NesVideoAgent: Not going to. The one I found had a matching checksum. The VBM file format should be fixed to allow for robust ROM matching.

Truncated: This submission is so long it took me 3 months to watch it. ... seriously, I feel a bit guilty that it has taken this long, no submission should take this long to judge (unless there is some technical problem). Sorry.
That being said, I have decided to reject this submission. The viewer response hasn't been overly positive, and for me this was a meh/no. There were already concerns that the previous game in this series was too long for publication, and this game is worse in that area.

mmbossman: This submission has been given another chance at publication. If you feel it should be published, instead of returning to the grue, please post WHY in the thread. Similarly, if you do NOT think this movie should be published, post WHY.

mmbossman: Only three people chose to support this run after another month in the queue. These happen to be the same three people who vocally supported this run during the first three months it spent on the workbench. If the general audience wanted this published, it would have garnered at least a little more response. Rejecting again.

adelikat: Accepting for publication to the Vault

natt: processing


TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15537
Location: 127.0.0.1
Skilled player (1604)
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
Watched it and enjoyed it.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
This looked well played, but I had it on 150% speed after watching for 15 minutes because it became very repetitive after that. I can see the appeal of running through a stealth based game, but as someone who hasn't played a lot of splinter cell, I just didn't really enjoy watching it. It would have made a big difference if the animations weren't as long as they were, as it seemed like many of the levels had a very disjointed feel due to the sudden change from pretty fast movement to a sudden stop to go behind some boxes. Also, after the first half of the game was over, I really couldn't spot anything that you were doing that was new or interesting. The same puzzles reappeared, the enemies didn't seem to get any more intelligent or harder to dispose of, and all of the required stealth moves stayed the same. A run half as long as this would have shown off everything this movie did. To sum up, I think you did a good job on it, but in my opinion it's just not a well suited game to TAS. Sorry, but I'm voting no. EDIT: Also, looking back at the responses that the previous movie garnered, it seems that many people had similar opinions about that movie despite it being 33% shorter.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Editor, Expert player (2477)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
The movie lenght is no problem for me, so voting "yes" for the good action sequences and the funny results of the dialog glitch.
Post subject: I have opinions
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
It was perhaps a bit too long, but I found it interesting enough to watch to the end. I bet if I had played it before I would probably be more amazed though. Without the context of how the game is supposed to be played, it sort of looks like a slow-ish platformer without many enemies. (Not that there's anything wrong with that! :P) Nevertheless, there were a few pretty funny moments and it seems quite optimized of course. Also, one of those minigames reminded me of Pipe Dream which was a plus.
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I voted no, sorry. I felt it dragged on way too long, for reasons already stated by mmbossman.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
"Yes". While some parts of the movie were turbo-worthy, it was interesting enough to make me watch the other GBA Splinter Cell movie. It may not be the best game, but I'd hardly say it was that bad.
Perma-banned
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Maybe a link to this in the published prequel's description?
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Editor, Expert player (2071)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
Request granted. (If it was a request, that is).
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
I'm kind of confused as to why this was rejected. I mean, the viewer response according to me was 72% positive so uh...?
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Flygon wrote:
I'm kind of confused as to why this was rejected. I mean, the viewer response according to me was 72% positive so uh...?
The poll is to give the judges an idea of what other people think of the run, there's no magic cutoff number for which movie gets accepted, and which movie gets rejected. Often, as it was in this submission, a fairly large number of people will vote yes, but not express why they voted that way in the form of a separate posting (again, to give feedback to the judges). Many times, a movie will have serious flaws, but will get a lot of yes votes because people don't want to be mean, or something (although a very different trend seems to emerge when it's a popular game, ie the recent OoT submission). In any case, there were two judges who found it boring, and even a couple of the yes votes had minor issues with the length (ie turbo-worthy). Hope that answers your question.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Flygon wrote:
I'm kind of confused as to why this was rejected. I mean, the viewer response according to me was 72% positive so uh...?
The votes could be 99.99% positive. It doesn't matter. Especially when the dissenting portion happen to be judges. (This is something else I've noticed. King's Quest? adelikat, FractalFusion, Truncated. This run? adelikat, Truncated. Hm...)
Perma-banned
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Xkeeper wrote:
(This is something else I've noticed. King's Quest? adelikat, FractalFusion, Truncated. This run? adelikat, Truncated. Hm...)
Wait.... that must mean.... *GASP* NO!! FractalFusion must have voted no, on his own run! And he probably did it from.... THE GRASSY KNOLL! Next door to where they filmed the moon landing! It's all making sense now! Or maybe they were just boring games. EDIT: Also, I'm sure that Bigfoot voted no after visiting Elvis in the underground bunker at Area 51.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
FractalFusion wrote:
Request granted. (If it was a request, that is).
It was a suggestion, and I would have done it myself eventually if no one protested :) My laziness thanks you! ----
Xkeeper wrote:
Especially when the dissenting portion happen to be judges.
To me, judges are the voters we entrust with making decisions that will be good for the long term survival and proliferation of the site. I "voted yes" on both the movies you reference, but I support the judging decision of not publishing them prominently to the general audience. Both are rather long, repetitive and dull to the viewer who does not have the context of what the games offer. Quality (ie a perceived high probability that a movie will be entertaining to many) in featured movies is far more important than quantity (ie featuring every movie that appears to go as fast as possible) in terms of attracting new viewers. I would say that this is a website where the featured, easily accessible content should astound and entertain almost universally. However, I do not see any reason that it cannot also be a place for movies that astound and entertain some, but said movies do not need the same exposure. One of aspects of the "WWW" medium that distinguishes it from, say, TV is that nothing is force fed, and we do not have to exclusively pander to the lowest common denominator to achieve "ratings". On the other hand, the initial grab of an astounding movie will be more likely to make people get curious and excited about the site. Then they can dig deeper, find that one movie of an obscure game that they enjoyed and take pleasure from it in a way that most will not. It is pull rather than push, and if there is more for people to pull from they will feel more at home, become interested, comment, make movies -- all things that will help TASvideos thrive.
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
You are a wise man alden. Thank you, that is one of the most eloquent descriptions of what I personally think this site is about.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Post subject: 1, not many
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
mmbossman wrote:
FractalFusion must have voted no, on his own run! And he probably did it from.... THE GRASSY KNOLL! Next door to where they filmed the moon landing! It's all making sense now! More useless and pointless words. Blah blah blah.
I'm reading the other reply (the more useful one, that is) but I was simply including the users who voted against it being published. The point I was trying to make that, while everybody else voted yes (except FractalFusion), adelikat and Truncated both voted against it and both runs were rejected. But thanks for making an idiot out of yourself. I appreciate it.
Perma-banned
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
alden wrote:
To me, judges are the voters we entrust with making decisions that will be good for the long term survival and proliferation of the site. I "voted yes" on both the movies you reference, but I support the judging decision of not publishing them prominently to the general audience. Both are rather long, repetitive and dull to the viewer who does not have the context of what the games offer. Quality (ie a perceived high probability that a movie will be entertaining to many) in featured movies is far more important than quantity (ie featuring every movie that appears to go as fast as possible) in terms of attracting new viewers. I would say that this is a website where the featured, easily accessible content should astound and entertain almost universally.
Summary: We should focus more on making movies that most people will enjoy instead of movies that only a few people familiar with the game will enjoy.
However, I do not see any reason that it cannot also be a place for movies that astound and entertain some, but said movies do not need the same exposure.
What "exposure" is this? What is the maximum vote count that needs to be reached for a run to be "popular enough"? Or do judges simply have the authority to say "This run isn't popular enough even though much of the audience has said it was well-made" and make it an absolute rejection? I'm not understanding on how different these movies are than, say, Lolo 3, which was the definiton of long and repetitive*.
One of aspects of the "WWW" medium that distinguishes it from, say, TV is that nothing is force fed, and we do not have to exclusively pander to the lowest common denominator to achieve "ratings". On the other hand, the initial grab of an astounding movie will be more likely to make people get curious and excited about the site. Then they can dig deeper, find that one movie of an obscure game that they enjoyed and take pleasure from it in a way that most will not. It is pull rather than push, and if there is more for people to pull from they will feel more at home, become interested, comment, make movies -- all things that will help TASvideos thrive.
Summary: Movies of popular get more viewers, while movies of less mainstream games will be looked for after the big names. You are sending conflicting messages. We shouldn't have movies of smaller, lesser-known games because that doesn't attract large viewers, but after watching movies of popular games those viewers will go to look for lesser-known games. The point I guess I am trying to make is that I honestly see no reason that we should limit ourselves to movies of only "popular games" if they are: - well made - not something easily duplicated by a normal player - recieved well by the audience that is interested in them This is helped by the fact this site has a serious lack of non-obsoletion movies. Just look at the front page -- not one movie there is of a previously un-TASed game, and most "popular games" are already TASed to death. *: I enjoyed watching this movie, but that doesn't change the fact that it was basically an hour of watching the same thing happen over and over.
Perma-banned
Post subject: Re: 1, not many
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Xkeeper wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
FractalFusion must have voted no, on his own run! And he probably did it from.... THE GRASSY KNOLL! Next door to where they filmed the moon landing! It's all making sense now! More useless and pointless words. Blah blah blah.
I'm reading the other reply (the more useful one, that is) but I was simply including the users who voted against it being published. The point I was trying to make that, while everybody else voted yes (except FractalFusion), adelikat and Truncated both voted against it and both runs were rejected. But thanks for making an idiot out of yourself. I appreciate it.
Learn to take a joke, jeez. What's it like living without any sense of humor whatsoever?
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
m&mbossman wrote:
What's it like living without any sense of humor whatsoever?
I'll handle this one. On a scale from one to ten, I would give it an 8 and in terms of percent I would give it 92%. There are some obivious improviaments though like, lack of humor and use of strange colors.
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Also, I don't find any conflicting messages in alden's post. Nothing is prohibiting anyone from making a movie for a less than popular game, but the quality of the site at large is affected by the movies that are published. I'm glad whenever someone makes a run for a game that hasn't been done before, because chances are that someone somewhere will find it enjoyable for some reason for another. If you take this run for example, a good amount of people found it enjoyable, but it wasn't published. Did that change your enjoyment of it at all? If someone wants to see it, the .vbm still exists, and is even linked to in the prequel's movie text. Just because publication acts like a filter to sort through the cream of the crop doesn't mean that the gruefood entries are all bad (see alden's sig, for example). It just means that the specific movie may not be entertaining enough to a large enough audience to warrant publication. The same thing goes for King's Quest. Many people enjoyed it because of nostalgia, but to someone who hadn't played it, it was 30 minutes of text boxes. Hope my point gets across
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Post subject: Re: 1, not many
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
mmbossman wrote:
Learn to take a joke, jeez. What's it like living without any sense of humor whatsoever?
You seem like the best person to ask that question (: To that end, how many people honestly watch emulator movie files compared to AVI? I cannot look up these statistics (obviously), but there is never any indication that such a movie is ever made unless you wade though the Crap section. Don't forget that most of the time the Crap section is just that, and not a good run that somebody didn't think was "publishable". I don't see how "non-uber-popular" games hurt this site's reputation at all. Badly played? Yes. Bad games in general? Yes. But games with an audience that are well-played? I don't see it. It's not like somebody sees some game they've never heard of while scrolling down a list and says "Wow, this site blows" without looking at any other ones.
Perma-banned
Post subject: Re: 1, not many
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Xkeeper wrote:
wade though the Crap section
Without some sort of standard for what constitutes an entertaining run, and by relying solely on whether the game is well-played, the published movies would slowly become just as cumbersome as the Crap section. It wouldn't be hard to make an optimized version of Where's Waldo, or Color a Dinosaur, or Barbie Vacation Adventure, and they may have an audience. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and that line is ultimately drawn by Bisqwit and the judges he appoints. I do hear that speedruns.net accepts pretty much anything that they get sent though, and it happens to feature several of the more notable gruefoods. So since they do provide movies for each run, I can only assume that if a person really wants to see a movie for a game that isn't published here, they will either search harder for it by using the handy (if somewhat inefficient) search engine on the site, or go elsewhere.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Post subject: Re: 1, not many
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
mmbossman wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
wade though the Crap section
Without some sort of standard for what constitutes an entertaining run, and by relying solely on whether the game is well-played, the published movies would slowly become just as cumbersome as the Crap section. It wouldn't be hard to make an optimized version of Where's Waldo, or Color a Dinosaur, or Barbie Vacation Adventure, and they may have an audience.
Xkeeper wrote:
The point I guess I am trying to make is that I honestly see no reason that we should limit ourselves to movies of only "popular games" if they are: - well made - not something easily duplicated by a normal player - recieved well by the audience that is interested in them
At least I take the 3 seconds to read though an entire post so I don't sound like a complete moron but I guess that's a rarity these days.
But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and that line is ultimately drawn by Bisqwit and the judges he appoints. I do hear that speedruns.net accepts pretty much anything that they get sent though, and it happens to feature several of the more notable gruefoods. So since they do provide movies for each run, I can only assume that if a person really wants to see a movie for a game that isn't published here, they will either search harder for it by using the handy (if somewhat inefficient) search engine on the site, or go elsewhere.
But I have nothing to respond to here, aside that people who are interested in a TAS are usually interested in it for specific reasons that a speedrun cannot accomplish. Personally I still see nothing wrong with it. Who cares? There used to be a "Recommended Movies" section (which I was not particularly fond of), for one thing. Why not just have a prominent link to the highest-rated movies so that people interested in popular games can find them, and leave the full system listings to the rest? And before somebody who thinks they're smart comes up and says "but there is, and it's right here!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!!@1111, please keep in mind the link forest for that one: FrontPage > FAQ > Movie Statistics > Highest Average Rating. Which is about the last thing I would consider "easily accessible".
Perma-banned
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Xkeeper, I think you and I are not really at odds here. mmbossman did a pretty good job of pointing out some things that I might not have made entirely clear, but I do want to add a few additional comments that were not stated bluntly in my last post: More movies should be published on TASvideos. This means, among other things, that some reasons for rejection should be ignored or loosened, for example, "Bad Game Choice" and "Bad Goal Choice". (One slightly misleading statement I made was "I support the judging decision of not publishing [these movies] prominently to the general audience." I explicitly did not say "I support the judging decision of not publishing these movies at all.") Along with and increase in content though comes a need to organize. Like it or not, some movies appeal to a larger audience than others. I personally would not mind seeing just a huge list of movies with no regard to popularity. But for the sake of accessibility and friendliness to newcomers, I don't object to the idea of having a shorter list that is a collection of more popular movies and that is featured more prominently on the site. It would end up being a mix of movies of popular games and well made, implicitly exciting movies of less popular games.
Xkeeper wrote:
Why not just have a prominent link to the highest-rated movies so that people interested in popular games can find them, and leave the full system listings to the rest?
Exactly. Even though I think that popular movies should be more prominent, I don't think that that would detract attention from all the other diverse and unique movies. There is just as wide an audience for these "unpopular" movies, even if each individual movie has a very small target audience. By publishing more movies, while having less popular movies featured less prominently, we would still be giving far more attention than we do now to some very competently made and entertaining movies. I would even say that good TASes of "bad" games wouldn't really hurt, as long as we acknowledge that it shouldn't be held in comparison with the popular movies, but is of interest in it's own right. I say, publish Front Line. Some people like "bad" games (like me).
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
alden wrote:
More movies should be published on TASvideos. This means, among other things, that some reasons for rejection should be ignored or loosened, for example, "Bad Game Choice" and "Bad Goal Choice". (One slightly misleading statement I made was "I support the judging decision of not publishing [these movies] prominently to the general audience." I explicitly did not say "I support the judging decision of not publishing these movies at all.")
Well, shit, what did we just spend the last several hours arguing over? I would rather see the Movies have more organization in general (Why aren't there pages, or an alphabetical listing? Why does "More..." on the recent changes list show ALL movies, all the way back to the beginning?) ... instead of the "Here's all of them for this system, go nuts". If we're worried about publishers not taking the time to get this set up, somebody make a generic logo and set me to the task, I have another system specifically for doing background shit that's fast and loaded. honestly I think mmbossman should just butt out of this entirely
Perma-banned