Post by Paulygon

Posted: 11/27/2004 8:31 AM

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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757

Bladegash wrote:

Yeah, you'd best be Baning Chaos at the end.

Heh.... if that works.. I will be floored! That would shave off several long minutes of pain... I wonder if you can Bane against WarMech successfully? Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.

Posted: 11/27/2004 9:57 AM

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julianch

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 143
Location: Valencia, Spain

so, bane works with lich, kary, kraken, tiamat and chaos?

I am a Mega Man fan that hates Megaman X8.

Posted: 11/27/2004 9:14 PM

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Paulygon

Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California

Yep, including the second versions in the ToFR. =) I should qualify my initial statement just a bit, though. Upon reflection, there is one immunity in the game that I'm aware of. HARM-type spells work only against undead.. never against any other kind of monster.

Posted: 11/28/2004 3:50 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Bob Whoops wrote:

I wonder at what level it will be beaten at.

I'm interested in seeing how low I can keep it, myself. The lowest I've heard of is level 10. Which is insane, if you ask me. I intend on letting one of the fighters die vs Astos, and just using 2 after that. They'll level up quicker that way, so I can do less battles. Also, is anyone aware of if you can run from enemeis like the Blue D guarding the sky fortress or any of those fights that you "have" to do? Or the second phase fiends in the TOF?

Posted: 11/28/2004 8:34 AM

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Paulygon

Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California

I'm pretty sure that you can't run from any battle that you "have" to do. This can be verified using FF Hackster with your FF1 ROM. Not only that, but some enemies that appear in such fights earlier in the game still can't be run from when they appear later as random fights. :-\ Namely, Wizards (Earth Cave, Ice Cave), Eye (Sky Castle), and Blue Dragon (rare on top two floors of Mirage Tower).

Posted: 11/28/2004 8:44 AM

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julianch

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 143
Location: Valencia, Spain

but Eyes give good amounts of GP. and EXP.

I am a Mega Man fan that hates Megaman X8.

Posted: 11/28/2004 9:11 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

I never could be bothered to download hackster. Even despite the burning desire to see what sprite was used for the invisible person. Anyway, it sucks that I won't be able to run from the Blue Ds. I already knew about not being able to run from wizards, though. And I do not look forward to avoiding those fights in the Earth cave. I suppose I could download hackster and look for myself, but... ehhh... can you run away from Earths? I sort of remember doing it when playing the game normally from time to time. And there's a big ol' stack of Bottle money just waiting for me to take behind those earths.

Posted: 11/28/2004 9:28 AM
(Edited: 12/7/2004 7:25 AM)

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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757

K, I was bored so I downloaded FFHackster and simply copied all the enemies that were flagged with "Can't Run" including monster combos that maybe flagged as that.... sooooooo to end curiousity, here it is. Wizard Earth Cerebus + WizOgre Fire FrGiant + FrWolf Zombull Phantom Water ZombieD Blue D Worm Gas D Eye Lich Kary Kraken Tiamat Chaos Vampire [Earth Cave only] Astos Pirate Garland That was in the order I found them in FFhackster. Hope this helps. [It's a neat utility btw, and some of the info may help more so then this] Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.

Posted: 11/28/2004 9:54 AM

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Paulygon

Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California

Yeah, Hackster helped me to answer some long-standing questions I had from back when I was playing the game originally. Contributed some of my own findings to the project, as well. I agree it can be difficult to understand some stuff, but such generally seems to be the way with in-depth hacking tools. :} Oh yeah, just one thing.. in that list, the Vampire is only the instance of the mini-boss in the Earth Cave. Later on, you can run from the groups of Vampires that appear in the Mirage Tower. The ToFR-versions of the fiends should also be included in that list (or perhaps it's implied). :)

Posted: 11/28/2004 9:58 AM

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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757

Paulygon wrote:

Oh yeah, just one thing.. in that list, the Vampire is only the instance of the mini-boss in the Earth Cave. Later on, you can run from the groups of Vampires that appear in the Mirage Tower. The ToFR-versions of the fiends should also be included in that list (or perhaps it's implied). :)

Hmm.. I should edit it then and add that notation. As for the fiends? It's implied :) Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.

Posted: 12/3/2004 2:55 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Might as well hit y'all up with an update. Here it is. It's right after getting the ruby, pushing 40 minutes. The Vampire was surprisingly easy, compared to the earths. The last thing I did was load my save states out of order, throw a hissy fit and cry and all that. So, the very end of the movie is slightly b0rken. But that doesn't matter. As far as things I've noticed/screwed up on, I accidentally got a silver armor and didn't notice until just now. Also, I've seen a few steps on the overworld map which can be shaved off. Also, I think I went into the sub screen 1 more time than needed. I can equip and use a cabin at the same time... It is also worth note that I allowed my bottom fighter to die so that my bm could get to level 8 and actually use fast before I face Lich. He'll probably stay dead, because I'd rather have 2 fightres in a "high" level than 3 in a low one. I might redo the 2 wizard fight after the vampire. I think I settled for a bum deal on that one. I donno if 8 hp is enough to get back out and go get the cane and come back before my next planned house use.

Posted: 12/4/2004 10:29 PM

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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757

Inzult wrote:

It is also worth note that I allowed my bottom fighter to die so that my bm could get to level 8 and actually use fast before I face Lich. He'll probably stay dead, because I'd rather have 2 fightres in a "high" level than 3 in a low one.

I dunno... I actually felt that letting him die was sloppy, even though I kow whatcha mean. But is there not a way to keep him alive and maybe negotiate a battle or 2 more with, say an Earth to make up for the time? I mean with 3 Fighters wailing... it could work. It might be also a bit off the beaten path as well, but Garland's cave does have those others swords and it might work out to your advantage later on, could it not? [Bane sword there, is there not..? Which might kill enemies via USE a LOT faster depending on luck manipulation.] Is there a way you can make some slight pauses on the overworld map so those "Forced to wait for the enemy to attack first" battles can't occur..? That takes up a decent chunk of time over a 1 second pause. Also another issue I have is letting the BM or other Fighters attack empty air. Is there no way around this issue.. or is it a must,so the luck manipulation can be worked out? Why are you also getting so much Gold? You never did indicate any kind of plan here, and though I can suspect it's for BM's spells... could you not get chests that are closer and sell those items... or is intentionally going a long way off the path to chests with Gold in them a lot quicker? Can you not co-ordinate a few more fights in the ocean to get some mad Gold due to luck maniulation to fight Kyzoku's or a few more battles normally with Gold giving beasties? Otherwise... this was a PHENOMENAL run. To be able to walk up to Astos THAT EARLY and BEAT HIM! [Those Criticals rocked!] ... Wow... if I could only pull that off on a console! I'm looking forward to seeing more, but just curious on those points. Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.

Posted: 12/5/2004 12:41 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (709)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

I was also very impressed with the Astos fight. Mr. KRF, I believe the money will go towards buying the BOTTLE later on, though warp magic may also be useful. Also, bane sword is in the floating castle near the end. The Rune and Were swords in the temple of fiends are not only too far off the path to be worth getting, but aren't that great anyway. I would like to ask why you didn't get the coral sword, I guess you are going to get the great axe in titan's tunnel, but there are some fights until then. Well, it's not a really big improvement over short sword, but it does have a decent sell price. I have to agree with Mr. KRF on selling items, you skip some nice sells while picking up tiny amounts of gold. The silver hammer in Elfland particularly stands out since it's worth about as much as the two chests right next to it (combined) that you do pick up. At the very least you must walk through Crescent Lake anyway so stopping into the shop to sell some things would be pretty quick. If you are saving up for the bottle, you can get tons of money in ice cave either in the one treasure room or by hunting the Eye, which would also level you up. Then you wouldn't need some of the gold you get either. Well, whatever, this isn't a real big deal. Finally, I think you had a good idea in leaving one fighter dead, not only because the others will get more levels but also better equipment. Though you could even this out pretty easily. Say, have you thought any more about whether to transform or not? If you do, you could do this right after getting the canoe. You have to go back to the ship anyway to get to ice cave, this would just be an extra trip. Otherwise, you'll probably park the ship right by the desert when you get the airship, which would be pretty convenient for a sea-based excursion later--faster than walking, I think, because the ship is faster and encounters fewer enemies. Looking more closely, you probably don't need to bother--your weapon and armor selection will be fine. You could really could use warp though, even if your level is only high enough for one shot. Ok, one more thing I was curious about. Did you consider getting SLEP for your black mage right off? Though normally useless, this would become extremely powerful if it could be manipulated (as good as in dragon warrior??), at the very least stretching out your hps. The 100 gold could easily be made up and as it is you simply waste your level 1 magic shots and your pointy-hat's battle turns. Well, overall this is pretty sweet, good luck!

Posted: 12/5/2004 1:28 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Yeah, I get all the gold for the bottle. I would really love to be able to do the Sea Shrine directly after the Ice Cave. The Coral Sword is a little further than the other treasure room on the same floor of the Earth Cave, and yes, the Great axe is in my future. I had not considered selling items, as the shop menus are clunky and slow. But I DO intend on making another movie after I'm done this one (because I never expected this one to be perfect), and if I end up being short for the bottle by only a couple of thousand, I'll include it in later. As for letting the Fighter die, let me delve deeper into my reasoning. Suppose One of the Light Warriors needs 2000 exp for a level up. Normally, this means you'd have to kill 8000 exp worth of enemeis to get that level up. With just the 3, that's 6000 exp worth of enemeis. Which makes a huge difference at this point in the game. Sloppy or not, 4 or 5 fights quicker is 4 or 5 fights quicker. Although I'm starting to question the inclusion of Fast into my strategy. It'll only be used for, like, 2 bosses (which could be criticaled a-la-astos). Otherwise, Mr BM is pretty useless in every area besides being another target or attacking for 5 or so HP... maybe a 4 fighter bonanza would be better. After all the thought I put into what party to use, I'm still not sure. As for the ineffective attacks... "attacking empty air"... sometimes it's hard to avoid. Actually, it's very hard to avoid. When you're trying to manipulate luck to leave you with a maximum ammount of hp, and deal as much damage as possible, it would take a great deal more patience than I have to make sure every attack lands. I'm not going to retry a round if one of my fighters gets a critical and the other has to swing at the air because of it, if all the monsters miss... if you know what I mean. That's something I'll have to (unfortunately) worry about in the next movie. As for "enemy strikes first" situations... I'm still not entirely sure when the game decides if the enemy strikes first or not. As far as I can tell, it's decided sometime within the previous fight (in which case, no, I can't wait momentarily while walking to avoid it). Also, I have no clue whatsoever when the game decides what the next monster formation you fight will be. SLEP could be useful. I hadn't even thought about it. Weird how things like that go under the radar. And the big q: to get the class change or not? I'll do it if I'm really short for the bottle for sure. Because I definately want to do the Sea Shrine and Sky Fortress before Gurgu Volcano. I can make enemies miss me all day, but I can't make damaging squares not damage me. So, the higher my level means the higher my hp means the more damage squares I can take. This will also be a problem in the Ice cave, but I'll just have to manage. Otherwise, I'm now convinced it's slower to class up. Making 2 movies is the only way to be sure, but I'm sure enough that it'll be faster to avoid that whole part that I'm going to go ahead and skip it if I can. One shot of warp between inn/house uses doesn't really make up for 3 floors of the castle of ordeals and travel there and back and going to meet bahamut. okay, i'll stfu now. Thanks for the suggestions. Thinking about the movie makes me want to work on it more, that's fo sho.

Posted: 12/5/2004 1:40 AM

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Emptyeye

Joined: 12/5/2004
Posts: 60

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:

Can you not co-ordinate a few more fights in the ocean to get some mad Gold due to luck maniulation to fight Kyzoku's or a few more battles normally with Gold giving beasties?

Fancy seeing you here. :P If I understand what you're asking correctly, it's essentially "can you manipulate luck to fight Kyzokus several times consecutively?" If I remember right, people have looked at the code to FF and determined that the enemies you meet are effectively patterned--IE there's a certain order to them (To explain further, when you start the game or reload from a save, the first battle you fight will be "battle zero" for whatever region you're in [As the game numbers them from 0 to FF, or 255], and battle zero will always be the same [Or more precisely, will always be the same in each region]. The next battle will be "battle one" and will also always be the same. And so on.). So while this can be "manipulated" to a limited degree--fight a certain number of battles on land so that the first one on sea will be Kyzokus, for instance--to my knowledge, there's no way to truly manipulate the battles to the degree you see in the Dragon Warrior videos (IE fighting Metal Slimes every step). Note that it was probably a year or two ago that I read this, and so my memory could be completely wrong...I'm confident that it isn't however. (Edited several times to improve clarity in what I'm trying to say)

Emptyeye.com- Come for the music, stay for the blog.

Posted: 12/5/2004 2:32 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Emptyeye wrote:

...people have looked at the code to FF and determined that the enemies you meet are effectively patterned--IE there's a certain order to them...

My experience with the movie thus far backs this claim up. Though, it is worth saying, that the ammount of enemeis you fight seems to be something you can manipulate. So, if I know I'm going to fight kyzokus, I can do the fight(s) before that over and over until I get 6 kyzokus (or whatever the maximum is).

Posted: 12/5/2004 3:34 AM

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Paulygon

Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California

I was one of those people looking into the random fighting stuff and I can definitely confirm this. The enemies you fight are not random at all, and therefore can't be manipulated, except in the very limited sense mentioned by Emptyeye of stepping into another domain (square areas on the world map) if you're close-by enough to a boundary (they are pretty big.. 32*32 squares for the world map on land, 2 large ones covering the world for rivers, one for the entire ocean, and one for each dungeon floor). Also correct is that the number of enemies of each type that you fight can be manipulated to some extent.. the minimum/maximum number of each type is built-in to each of the battle configurations. In the Kyzoku fight, for instance, the range is 1 to 5. With some battles, though, the number is fixed with no room for manipulation (like with the Fiends, where the range is a minimum and maximum of 1). Sometimes the minimum number is zero, so for that enemy in that battle, you could keep them from showing up.

Posted: 12/6/2004 4:38 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

I just wandered into the Ice cave, and, of course, ran into a group of mages, and they cut my hp in half. As I had feared, FAST wasn't useful enough against lich to warrant its trouble. Therefore, I will conclude that 3 fighters and a RM with Lit2 or Fir2 would be more useful than my current party. A well manipulated blast of Lit2 would come in handy. Also, It's apparent I will have enough for the bottle after the ice cave. In fact, I could probably cut out a few chests from before and just get an extra one in the ice cave (for example, miss the ones in elfland, and a few in the earth cave). This would save time. Come to think of it, I could have gone to the coral sword treasure room... it's worth a bit less GP than the other one, but it would give me another useful sword for, say, a RM. Also, I'm getting better at avoiding "enemy strikes first" and managing to run without taking damage. I guess I'm getting in the groove. The next movie will only be faster and smoother. Shwing! I guess I should upload the movie, so you can see what I'm talking about.

Posted: 12/7/2004 2:55 AM

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qbproger

Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69

I'm really looking foward to this on.. It's going to be awesome. I'm a huge FF1 fan. I don't know how much leveling up you're doing. There is a part in the beginning area by the second town that'll let you fight much stronger enemies than normal for that area.

Posted: 12/7/2004 8:59 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Yes, you seem to have that running manuever down pretty well. FAST does prove pretty worthless, I didn't think about this either, but you don't really do much damage without crits. I guess more hits means a bigger chance to get them, but along with manipulation probably doesn't give you much besides 1 dam/hit. Also, having one of your fighters dead not only means you only have 2 chars doing all the work, but your pointy-hat's chance to get hit goes up from 1/8 to 1/7. So not only is he worthless, but also a liability in combat. Almost better off dead at this point. Anyway, later on you can give him wizard staff and bane sword and he'll become your most powerful warrior. Also, with better weapons equipped later on, FAST might actually be useful. Of course if you had zeus gauntlet from the Ordeal then you could slaughter just about every fight in one turn--cockatris, wizards, mummies, bring em on! Well, unless you run from battle, your odds of doing each battle with a reasonable amount of damage keeps getting slimmer and slimmer. You almost need a scheme like acmlm's method for Dragon Warrior, though the factors are much more complex here. One thing that might help is removing all your armor. No really, this will increase your evade, it might be easy to just dodge every attack.

Posted: 12/7/2004 3:36 PM

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bobucles

Joined: 7/27/2004
Posts: 48

Are you going to manipulate luck for level ups? It is possible to change what stats you get, somewhat. This is what I know about stats: Evade- IIRC, all characters start at 50% evade. Equipping heavy armor will reduce this stat considerably. Gaining agility on a level up will boost this stat. Hit%- All classes gain a specific amount on a level up. Melees get the most, and casters the least. Higher hit% gives a better chance to hit, and more hits. Attack power- determines damage. Gaining strength on a level up will boost this stat. Black belts have 2 attack power per level, when they are bare handed. Defense- reduces damage. Black belts have 1 defense per level, when they are naked. Strength- 1 more strength = 1 more attack power. Fighters have a 99.9% change of getting strength on a level up, other characters considerably less. Agility- 1 more agility = 1 more evade%. Can't go wrong here. More agility will make it easier to dodge attacks. Thieves have a 99.9% chance of getting it on a level. May also help with the ability to run, but I'm not really sure. Int- Don't think it really does anything. May affect ability to get high damage values with magic. Black mages have a 99.9% chance of getting it every level. Constitution- Several early levels seem to give bonus HP beyond the norm. All other levels get about 1/2 of this value on a level up. Warriors are the best at this, but it is handy to manipulate for everyone. The sooner this stat goes up, the more levels it will have an impact on. Luck- No idea what it does.

Posted: 12/7/2004 3:45 PM

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Emptyeye

Joined: 12/5/2004
Posts: 60

bobucles wrote:

Defense- reduces damage. Black belts have 1 defense per level, when they are naked. Strength- 1 more strength = 1 more attack power. Fighters have a 99.9% change of getting strength on a level up, other characters considerably less. Int- Don't think it really does anything. May affect ability to get high damage values with magic. Black mages have a 99.9% chance of getting it every level. Luck- No idea what it does.

A few things:I believe Constitution is called Vitality in the NES version. Not that this changes the stat any. Black Belt defense is bugged in some way. Even with equipment, sometimes is reverts to 1 defense/level. I forget precisely how this happens, but it has something to do with accessing the status screen. You're also correct in that several of the stats (I believe the ones you mentioned) simply don't do anything. It's also worth noting that several spells don't do anything despite claiming they do--mostly status boosting spells. FAST does work, IIRC, though whether you'll be at a high enough level/have good enough equipment to really take advantage of it is another story. If I remember correctly, certain levels are "big" for HP gain and the like. Since these are (As I recall) set in stone, these are the ones you'd likely want to manipulate if possible. Finally, every 32 (I think, it's either 32 or 16) hit% = another hit. Since this apparently cannot be manipulated, this really doesn't help you, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Emptyeye.com- Come for the music, stay for the blog.

Posted: 12/7/2004 9:08 PM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

Haste (FAST) doubles Hit%, which usually doubles the number of hits (you get an extra hit every 32, unless you're a Monk - Monks get extra hits every 16). INT does nothing. Some of your gain rates are wrong. Fighter/Knight does get STR at every level, as does Black Mage/Wizard get INT, but Monk/Supermonk gets VIT and Thief/Ninja gets LUK. Some stat raises are predetermined. A stat that isn't forced to raise always has a 50% chance of raising, which should be easy to manipulate if you really want stats. Monk's attack power and absorb reset to the level-based formula every time they gain a level; you need to check the appropriate weapon/armor screen or the status screen to force them back to equipped values. As the level-based values are usually higher, you want to equip a ProRing or Ribbon just before a level and then never check the Status or Armor screens ever again. But that's irrelevant here.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 12/8/2004 12:36 AM

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Inzult

Active player (435)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

The only stat that I would want to manipulate for the fighters would be AGI, and this would only matter early on when I have really awful/no armor. However, later in the game when I'm fighting a Kraken, for example, in level 10 or something, having a maximum evade of 60% isn't going to make that much of a difference. Whether my evade is high or low, I can still manipulate that fight to make an enemy miss. And, with heavy armor, if the enemy doesn't miss, but I want to keep a round anyway because of good criticals, I probably can. Also... I have no idea how/when the game chooses what stats I gain for a level, so trying to manipulate it would be tricky :D. I never looked into it. Anyone have any insight into this? If I use a red mage or a theif, I would be interested in attempting to manipulate STR. Hit% would be useful to manipulate, if I could. But, alas, it is static. FAST turned out to be useful vs the eye. And, not having lit2 didn't really hurt me as much as I thought it would. Though, if I were unlucky and had to fight many groups of Wizards, I'd be effed fo' sho'. BM's inclusion in the next version remains in question. I'll have to press on and see what happens... I really like BM, even if he is useless half the time... okay, most of the time. Also, the bulk of the game is running. Having only 3 characters means I only have to go to RUN 3 times in stead of 4. This is faster. The only time having 2 fighters doing all the work really hurts is when I have to do fights... which, admittedly is required. But, pretty soon I'll have the BANE sword, and at that point, I only really need 1 character. The others would just be there to stand in front of the BANE user.

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