I also haven't heard any of this. Could you cite some quotes where you think this feeling has been conveyed?
RT-55J wrote:
regular speedrans stink just like ur mom loltbqh. tool asisted speedruins complet the games fastre in my fact tbqh imo and are theirfour much beter.
u craz normul spedrun suportters need to get alife lol!!!!111!!! pwned lol!!!!111!!! (jus tlik ur mom lol( we shuod make the normall seped runers pay by makign thim make tasses imo,
sincerly,
rt-55j
pss, tivbnfstbqhief
Nate has fortunately changed his thoughts on TASes....
I don't really care about his views on TASes. What freaked me out was his thoughts on how democracy worked. The majority is not the position to subjugate the minority. That is why we have systems of checks and balances, a house composed by population count, and a senate composed of artificial land borders. Why 1 person has veto power, yet can still be overruled by a 2/3rds majority in both house and senate.
Even if he is now 'ok' with TASes, that doesn't change the underlying philosophies by which he lives his life. He sounds almost manic when he talked about 'saving the world' from TASes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania"symptoms of mania include rapid speech, racing thoughts, decreased need for sleep, hypersexuality, euphoria, grandiosity, and increased interest in goal-directed activities." (emphasis mine)
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Again, I'm talking about entertainment. The story of the game adds to its entertaining value. Ruining the story doesn't.
It doesn't matter if I have played the game or not: I still want to see an entertaining video. Some strobo flickering which ruins the cutscenes is not entertaining. It's crap.
If you were meant to watch the cutscenes they wouldn't be interactive. You are criticising game choice, not player choice.
Warp wrote:
I never said that entertainment should be increased at the cost of speed. I just said that in situations where speed is irrelevant (unskippable interactive cutscenes, for example), the better choice is the most entertaining thing to do instead of trying to annoy the viewer.
It is more interesting to play with the boundaries of what is possible and mess with the interactive elements the game gives you than to passively watch cutscenes anyone who cares about can see on Youtube and anyone who cares about can play the game to see. Your idea of entertainment isn't shared by the players (who have seen that cutscene before) nor the developers (who allow you to ignore the cutscene and play with the physics engine). Again, if you want to watch cutscenes, watch a Japanese game, not a Western one.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Your idea of entertainment isn't shared by the players (who have seen that cutscene before) nor the developers (who allow you to ignore the cutscene and play with the physics engine). Again, if you want to watch cutscenes, watch a Japanese game, not a Western one.
Why is this different in speedruns than in TASes?
It almost seems like speedruns are the completely *opposite* of TASes in this respect: It seems as if making interactive (unskippable) cutscenes entertaining and watchable is frowned upon with speedrunds, while with TASes anything that makes the video more annoying and less entertaining is frowned upon.
In the TAS side, it's not unthinkable to see some opinions like "you didn't make it as entertaining as you could, remake it, and perhaps then it will be published". In the speedrun side it seems like even expecting the authors to create something even barely entertaining is a sin.
Why this difference?
(And it's not like making the cutscenes watchable would require effort from the part of the speedrunner. For example, the HL:OF speedrun is the quintessential example of this: Making the cutscenes watchable would have not required *anything at all* from the author. Ruining it required a fair amount of effort and patience from his part. So he actually put effort in ruining the cutscenes, while leaving them intact would have required no effort whatsoever. Why would it be unreasonable to expect him not to ruin those cutscenes? As if it was something too much to ask.)
Hmm... Not to point a finger, but it seems that you read that first paragraph, thought I was an idiot and moved on?
I said all I'm hearing was that argument, that doesn't mean that I'm directly seeing people say that. I just feel that the way that this topic has come across seems to be an argument on which form of speedrunning is superior.
Then you're reading into it too deeply. Nobody has said anything ill of speed runs in and of themselves, and I'm fairly certain most of us do actually watch SDA runs for personal enjoyment and interest. The bone of contention raised in the topic has been with stylistic choices of isolated cases within the SDA video archive. In no way is it an attack on SDA or anything/anyone associated with it.
I still stand by my opinion that anyone can get a TAS onto the site with enough patience. Pick a random game that no one cares about and use a million save states. There is still some skill involved, because it may not be the most optimal of runs, but there are simple enough games out there that literally, anyone could have done the TAS for them.
For speedruns, I believe that anyone can also do a segmented speedrun with enough time on their hands.
I don't think everyone can do single segment speedrun that will even look halfway decent, even if you practiced your ass off. Here is my short example:
Give me 2 hours, and I can get anyone on here to get 20 seconds in the very first level of sonic 2, 1 second off the record.
Give them 2 hours, they can TAS the first level of sonic 2 and come close to the TAS time.
Give someone 2 weeks, and they will not be within 3 minutes of my single segment time on sonic 2. (edit: obviously my point here is the majority of people will not come within 3 minutes, there are exceptions for good players)
The same can go for another game too, you could make the same comparison to games with somewhat longer segments. I think anyone can make a decent looking TAS of zelda OOT (that one dude nearly got his casual TAS accepted), anyone can make a pretty decent looking segmented run (maybe not to manocheese's level, but within a decent amount of time), but the majority of the people will not touch kazooies SS time.
I still stand by my opinion that anyone can get a TAS onto the site with enough patience.
Well with enough patience, yes most probably would be able to sooner or later. However I think most people with proper equipment and time/patience could also get a run up on SDA, as long as they pick the right game and stay away from runs like Super Metroid in 00:32.
stanski wrote:
Pick a random game that no one cares about and use a million save states.
Well you can't choose any game you want to, games that are to simple to be meaningful to TAS or games that are simply boring won't get published.
stanski wrote:
There is still some skill involved, because it may not be the most optimal of runs, but there are simple enough games out there that literally, anyone could have done the TAS for them.
Well anyone can make a near perfect speedrun of an easy game, there is still some skill involved but easy enough games can be nearly perfected by anyone. And for advanced games that has well done runs you need skill and knowledge to be able to beat them, both for regular speedruns and TASes.
stanski wrote:
Give them 2 hours, they can TAS the first level of sonic 2 and come close to the TAS time.
Well define close, a second or even a half of a second off is not to be considered close from a TASing standpoint. And even so, close is irrelevant. It is beating the records that matter, and I would like to see someone do that in 2 hours
stanski wrote:
Give someone 2 weeks, and they will not be within 3 minutes of my single segment time on sonic 2.
Give someone a month and I doubt they will be even close to beating the sonic 2 TAS record, what's your point? (Or well I don't know how well optimized that TAS is since I haven't watched it but my point is about well optimized TASes of complex games in general)
Sorry if this post was all over the place, I'm tired.
I know this was a page or 2 ago, but i just noticed it. Someone quoted me as saying something to the effect of "Warp in the SDA hate thread at TASvideos continues to entertain me." in the SDA IRC. The Warp and entertaining parts are spot on, or at least were. I stopped reading this thread a while ago (No more entertainment). When I said "SDA hate thread", I was only trying to quickly describe the thread in question. Nothing more.
This has all gotten utterly out of hand, I think. Not that it was particularly civil to begin with...
EDIT : Why I found it entertaining.
adzicents wrote:
I just feel that the way that this topic has come across seems to be an argument on which form of speedrunning is superior.
Give someone a month and I doubt they will be even close to beating the sonic 2 TAS record, what's your point? (Or well I don't know how well optimized that TAS is since I haven't watched it but my point is about well optimized TASes of complex games in general)
Sorry if this post was all over the place, I'm tired.
First, its a bad example because sonic 2 has had a few finds that will save at least 15-30 seconds since the TAS last came out. Second, it doesn't matter that frames are what really matters in a TAS, because if there is no run to beat i.e. no competition on teh game (and there are games like this on tasvideos, that are known to be unoptimal but are not competed on for various reasons), a run that is only a few frames off will still make it onto the site. I realize the same can and does happen on SDA (there are a ton of shitty runs there too), but the original point is that it takes a lot more skill in my mind to do a single segment speedrun vs. a segmented speedrun. I think my opinion here is valid since i've done both.
There isn't a difference. What you are wishing for is "calmly watches the cutscenes" which is NOT entertaining because everyone who cares has seen the cutscenes already. HOW someone ignores the cutscenes can be called into question, sure, but complaining about one particular method of doing so is like complaining about wobbling in TASes - some people think it's cool (because it's only possible in TAS), some people hate it (because it looks stupid).
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
but the original point is that it takes a lot more skill in my mind to do a single segment speedrun vs. a segmented speedrun. I think my opinion here is valid since i've done both.
Really the skill needed is not constant, a extremely well done segmented run is just as hard to beat as a relatively equally well done singel segmented run. It depends on the skill and effort that the author of the existing run put into it, not if it is segmented or single segmented. When doing a run of a game that has yet to get one it is of course easier to make a good looking segmented run but the skill that it takes to make depends on the author, not the choice of how to make the run. (IMO)
I think my opinion here is valid because I have done all three(TAS, SS, segmented)
I still stand by my opinion that anyone can get a TAS onto the site with enough patience.
Well, this is a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy. Given enough time and patience, most people will actually get the necessary knowledge, experience and skill to create a good TAS (or regular speedrun). In other words, they get better at it with time through practice and patience, by getting more skillful and/or knowledgeable of the game and TASing/speedrunning mechanics.
That still doesn't mean that making a good TAS or speedrun is easy.
How you posed the original claim sounded more like "anyone can make a great TAS (or segmented speedrun) *without* having to get experience, knowledge an practice on the game and the techniques involved". That's just not true.
And I disagree: Not everyone has the patience necessary for this. While in theory almost anyone can get good enough at it, some people just lack the required patience.
This thread was a lot of fun to read through.
A comment from me that was never asked for is simply this.
Speedrun = "Hey, look at what I can do!"
TAS = "Hey, look at cool this is!" (Though I suppose there are some users who absolutely have to be the one making the TAS, thus making it a "Hey, look at what I can do!", though I'm under the impression most of us just want to create something fun, exiting, and unexpected to watch. Hence, the entertainment issue brought up with this thread)
Both are pretty awesome, but for vastly different reasons.
Also, it bugs me that half the posts in this thread have "in my opinion" or, even worse, "IMO" in them. You're the one typing it, it's painfully obvious it's your opinion. "IMO" in particular baffles me, it's intended to save time by being an acronym when it could simply be left out entirely.
In addition, I think it's highly relative to this discussion that I'm not wearing pants.
This thread was a lot of fun to read through.
Also, it bugs me that half the posts in this thread have "in my opinion" or, even worse, "IMO" in them. You're the one typing it, it's painfully obvious it's your opinion. "IMO" in particular baffles me, it's intended to save time by being an acronym when it could simply be left out entirely.
I know what you mean. Still, I prefer to use it. When I make a statement without "in my opinion", it usually stays as an absolute statement, that is commonly known as true. Like "3+4=7" or "the earth orbits the sun".
However, when I add "in my opinion", it becomes more relative, as it is solely my point of view, with an admittedly higher probability to be false.
This is however a matter of taste and I pretty often fail to distinguish these 2 cases myself.
I didn't read the thread, so I may have misinterpreted your post. ^^
Also, it bugs me that half the posts in this thread have "in my opinion" or, even worse, "IMO" in them. You're the one typing it, it's painfully obvious it's your opinion. "IMO" in particular baffles me, it's intended to save time by being an acronym when it could simply be left out entirely.
It's probably done out of habit. The internet is full of dumbasses, and you have to spell out to these prepubescent opinionated fucks that you're not stating a fact but an opinion.
Also, it bugs me that half the posts in this thread have "in my opinion" or, even worse, "IMO" in them. You're the one typing it, it's painfully obvious it's your opinion. "IMO" in particular baffles me, it's intended to save time by being an acronym when it could simply be left out entirely.
I must admit that I'm a bit envious of you. Life must be working out pretty well for you right now if something this insignificant is a high-ranking source of personal distress.
atro city wrote:
The internet is full of dumbasses, and you have to spell out to these prepubescent opinionated fucks that you're not stating a fact but an opinion.
Indeed. It's also a good way to spare yourself listening to the, "well, that's just your opinion!" retort.
Also, it bugs me that half the posts in this thread have "in my opinion" or, even worse, "IMO" in them. You're the one typing it, it's painfully obvious it's your opinion. "IMO" in particular baffles me, it's intended to save time by being an acronym when it could simply be left out entirely.
I must admit that I'm a bit envious of you. Life must be working out pretty well for you right now if something this insignificant is a high-ranking source of personal distress.
LOL, best insult of my week.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I must admit that I'm a bit envious of you. Life must be working out pretty well for you right now if something this insignificant is a high-ranking source of personal distress.
I did break a fingernail earlier. That was pretty traumatic. And then this whole IMO nonsense just put me over the edge, man.
My hellish personal life aside, I realise full well that it isn't such a big subject to bemoan, and that pointing it out won't change anything; but I derive childish pleasure in pointing out painfully obvious things.
What I *do* hate is that in a few speedruns it seems like the runner does his best to annoy the viewer, for no good reason.
This is something I sincerely agree with. I bring back the Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion examples.
On SDA the Pikmin run got obsoleted. In this first run, the player annoyed the snot out of people by spinning the camera around, making you get motion sickness. (There are certain things in games that actually CAN make you feel sick. It's not just something they have to say in the warning section) This was not in the new run.
There was also a Luigi's Mansion Run I saw somewhere that bugged the snot out of people by constantly making Luigi shout "MARIO!" Throughout the whole run the player did this, and it got annoying quickly.
Runs may or may not need to be "entertaining" (whatever your definition of that may be) but a run shouldn't be annoying.
What I *do* hate is that in a few speedruns it seems like the runner does his best to annoy the viewer, for no good reason.
If you have speedrunned a game like Half-Life a hundred times, the cutscenes start to get really annoying... so the speedrunners often do something annoying to make the waiting less annoying for them. As a consequence we viewers might get annoyed by their projected annoyance.
If you have speedrunned a game like Half-Life a hundred times, the cutscenes start to get really annoying... so the speedrunners often do something annoying to make the waiting less annoying for them. As a consequence we viewers might get annoyed by their projected annoyance.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it would be unreasonable or unfair to at least strongly suggest speedrunners to avoid doing things that may degrade the enjoyment of the speedrun from a first-time viewer's point of view. Even if the speedrunner himself has seen the cutscene a million times, the average viewer hasn't.
Ugh, how can you even hope to try and guess this? Honestly, I don't see a thread on TASvideos (or SDA, considering the misplacement of this thread) for every TAS that uses brain-itchingly annoying wobbling. Some... people... just don't like it, no matter what you do.
You don't need to try and 'justify your opinion', because it's an opinion. That said, you don't need to say it, either. Especially when nothing will be done about it.
That said, you don't need to say it, either. Especially when nothing will be done about it.
Given the amount of speedrunners who have expressed their (often misguided) opinion on the subject in this thread, I think I have gained some insight into the mindset of (at least some) speedrunners: It indeed is so that they don't give a rat's ass about what may or may not annoy the viewer. The actual goals of performing these extremely annoying things to ruin cutscenes are not completely clear.
But anyways, my original sentiment is still valid: Some speedrunners seem to be worried that TASes "steal" viewers. Well, if they put more attention on the actual entertainment value of the speedruns, perhaps that would somewhat alleviate the problem. Instead of trying to annoy the user to death, why not try to entertain the user?
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
This thread is on the home stretch of the 1600m relay, and even after the first three trips around, the same damn questions keep getting asked. Just face it people, you can't entertain everyone all the time. Just live with it, and move on. If you don't enjoy watching something, don't watch it. Or, if it bugs you that much, make your own run so you can direct what gets included and what doesn't.
