Once again, because the original is unavailable seeing as it is on DOS, a port will have to do.
Tis basically a graphic adventure which we have a few of already. There's points to be had by doing stuff and getting the maximum (159 out of 158 if you set the bowl down on the table before filling it up) number is not essential, it might do for a 100% run.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/sms/code/588090.html
I not sure if this information is correct as I'm more familiar with the DOS version but if it is, I'd sure like to know how these harder modes are different from the original.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Hey, BZero:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/424074340/kq-improvement-demo.mmv
This movie shows 71 frames faster method to travel a certain section of the game (before the eagle flight). I used your movie to test things, so fast-forward to 9500 frames (when leaving the woodsman's house).
The trick is to exit and re-enter a certain type of screen that forces your position change due to impenetrable obstacles. I re-enter the witch cabin screen from left to get automatically to the front of the cabin, thus saving walking time to the eagle screen. Watch in slow-motion to see what happens.
Note: I'm not sure if the walk-on-water-zip trick saved any time here, because the zipping direction is wrong (downwards), but I demonstrated it here too. The walk-on-water trick works in any swimmable water by jumping before falling to the water. Occasionally, you get zipped fast while walking on the water.
Your (BZero) recently published movie is very precise and you know a lot about the game, so would you consider improving the movie? I would be glad to help in any way I can, because I really enjoy this type of games. Basically, we would need to find more places where exiting and re-entering the screen might shorten the walking distances. I'm sure more new tricks could emerge in the process.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Oh, I just found a way to bypass the trolls without the goat:
Let the eagle take you away. Then walk down at the lower right corner of the screen and then immediately right to get to the gnome. Got it? There is a frame of opportunity, so you can leave the screen before falling to the deadly water. After getting the key from the gnome, just walk down. If you get stuck inside the troll, just jump to get released.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I deviced a route that is about 2000 frames faster compared to the published run. Carrot and cheese are skipped items and no eagle flight is used.
1. Get bowl
2. Get pebbles
3. Get mushroom
4. Get key (from the gnome)
5. Unlock door - Open door
6. Look at hole - Get slingshot
7. Use slingshot (to kill the giant)
8. Get chest
9. Push rock - Look at hole - Get dagger
10. Cut rope - Get bucket - Lower rope - Climb
11. Swim - Fill bucket
12. Throw water (to bypass the dragon)
13. Get mirror
14. Give bowl - Fill bowl - Get fiddle
15. Eat mushroom (to enter the cave)
16. Use fiddle (to bypass the leprachauns)
17. Get shield
18. Open castle door.
19. Talk to the king
I'll post an unoptimized route demo later.
Great work, Aqfaq, I didn't think this video would be improvable by that much.
I can't believe I didn't find that way to get to the mushroom in my run. It was so obvious. I even tried abusing the walk-behind-trees-to-cross-rivers trick on the screen south of the castle door, but I didn't try the obvious thing and see if it was possible to just go up where you did. That shortcut really saves a lot of time, as the cheese and the eagle flight are no longer needed.
As for the new route, I'll have to watch your video a few more times and such before commenting on it, but yes, I'm definitely interested in improving my run. :)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
BZero wrote:
I'm definitely interested in improving my run. :)
Awesome! Then maybe I'll leave all the precise frame shaving to you and concentrate on finding new ways to do things. I'm not sure if the route is perfect yet. I can't quite decide when to get the bowl and the dagger.
Did you know that you can escape the castle moat by jumping at a certain moment? There are many other places where jumping can be used for some minor strangeness, but I haven't found anything useful (except the walk-on-water trick, which is not used on the new route).
I have found a new route that is roughly 300-400 frames faster than yours. Hard to tell exactly how much faster of course, since both your run and the test run I'm doing right now are very sloppy, but it's definitely faster. Here's a comparison of our (simplified) routes. Your route is on the left, with the number of screens you must pass through to get to each item and then the total number of screens you've passed through. Then my route's on the right.
01 | Get bowl | 6 | 6 | Get dagger | 2 | 2 |
02 | Get pebbles | 1 | 7 | Get pebbles | 3 | 5 |
03 | Get mushroom | 1 | 8 | Get mushroom | 1 | 6 |
04 | Get key | 2 | 10 | Get key | 2 | 8 |
05 | Get chest | 5 | 15 | Get bowl | 3 | 11 |
06 | Get dagger | 2 | 17 | Get chest | 2 | 13 |
07 | Get mirror | 3 | 20 | Get mirror | 3 | 16 |
08 | Get fiddle | 4 | 24 | Get fiddle | 4 | 20 |
09 | Get shield | 2 | 26 | Get shield | 2 | 22 |
10 | End game | 4 | 30 | End game | 4 | 26 |
(I only counted the overworld screens, as everything else will be the same anyway)
I know fewer screens visited doesn't necessarily mean a faster time, but it's an easy way to compare different routes.
Here's a very simple map I made of the overworld:
L-L-O-L-L-D-B-A
O-O-L-F-O-O-M-O
K-O-O-L-S-O-P-O
O-O-O-O-O-O-B-O
O-L-w-O-L-C-O O
O-O-O-W-O-O-O-O
O - Nothing of interest
L - Lake
A - Start
B - End (castle entrance)
D - Dagger
F - Fiddle
M - Mushroom
K - Key (gnome)
S - Shield (the tiny cave)
P - Pebbles
B - Bowl
C - Chest (door)
W - Well entrance (mirror)
w - Well exit
See if you can spot a faster route there. I can't.
Did you know that you can escape the castle moat by jumping at a certain moment? There are many other places where jumping can be used for some minor strangeness, but I haven't found anything useful
Nope, didn't know that. I'll experiment with it a little when I start the proper run.
(except the walk-on-water trick, which is not used on the new route).
Going north and crossing the lake when getting the fiddle is faster than going south like you did in your route, so it might prove useful, actually. :)
I'll post my route test video when I'm done (very soon).
DeHackEd's site is down (at least for me), so here: http://www.microupload.com/409976
353 frames faster, and I really doubt you lost almost 6 seconds more than me due to "sloppiness", so I think we can conclude that this route is faster.
Thanks. I just noticed a mistake in that comparison up there, though. I put 2 screens for getting the dagger, but walking behind the castle like in the old run is actually faster even though I have to enter 2 more screens that way. It just looks like 2 screens on my "map". Just starting the new run now. Saved 18 frames by not picking up the carrot... Hooray!
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I found another bug: Climb to the large tree and exit the screen to the right. You then maintain the climb position indefinitely and you can go through some obstacles. Haha!
When a DOS emulator with decent rerecording features becomes available, would a run of the DOS version of this game automatically obsolete this SMS run? Just like with Adventure Island?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
I found another bug: Climb to the large tree and exit the screen to the right. You then maintain the climb position indefinitely and you can go through some obstacles. Haha!
XD Most entertaining glitch so far, that's for sure. Just too bad I couldn't find a use for it. Also, the effect seems to reset on certain screens.
BTW, I've picked up the dagger, pebbles and mushroom so far in the new run, and comparing it to my test run, I'm on schedule for a sub-3 minute time.
N. Harmonik: I don't think so. Yes, this is a port of the PC game, but they're not really all that comparable, I think... I don't know.
EDIT: You can cross the eastern troll-guarded bridge with the climbing glitch, but that can't possibly be faster than the current method.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Wow, FAG! (Found Another Glitch!)
Repeatedly kill the goat (about 7 times), so that the dead dead dead goat moves off screen and comes around from the other side. If you exit and re-enter the goat screen now, every screen, every enemy and even the menu is messed up permanently. Maybe there's some potential for useful glitching?
So far, I've been able to reset to the intro screen or crash the game, but nothing useful yet. The position of the goat seems to cause different results.
The RAM tools in Dega are clumsy, but maybe it's possible to manually poke the goat's coordinates to quickly test many positions?
Before:
After:
Repeatedly kill the goat (about 7 times), so that the dead dead dead goat moves off screen and comes around from the other side. If you exit and re-enter the goat screen now, every screen, every enemy and even the menu is messed up permanently. Maybe there's some potential for useful glitching?
So far, I've been able to reset to the intro screen or crash the game, but nothing useful yet. The position of the goat seems to cause different results.
The RAM tools in Dega are clumsy, but maybe it's possible to manually poke the goat's coordinates to quickly test many positions?
Before:
After:
