Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am still working on the run, but I hit a snag. I just got screwed with the phantoon drops, so I am trying to find a way to collect missile drops without losing much time.
I didn't compare times, but I am gonna venture a guess and say that you are slightly ahead of me at this point (in-game time). Though a direct comparison is not possible because I did not collect the pink brinstar tank.
Wow, that was new to me. Who would have thought that a Missile has a slightly different moving line than a nowmal shot, to still hit the bottom block directly where the normal shot fails. I didn't even try that in my run, because I have this habit to play safe and not waste any ammo when it's not absolutely required. Not a good thing as it seems... Good job, hero.
Anyway, this tricks saves exactly 13 frames, and thus makes picking the additional Missile pack a easy choice in a ingame run.
there is no way to keep your speed after a cwj while spinning? no f'cking way or :(?
There is a way, I managed to do it in one of my hack TASes. However, I think the reason it worked was because I was underwater with gravity suit. Or it was the speed boost. Or it was the screw attack. I don't know. But if you are refering to the CWJ at the blue brinstar elevator, I take it's impossible.
Doing 2 CWJs in a row is impossible with the known information. I'm not saying it won't be done with something that might be found out in future, but for now it can't be done.
Gee you gotta watch your mouth around here these days.
EDIT:
Plus I watched your smv, with dual or multiple CWJs being possible there would be many more places they could be useful not only that one. Mainly I think the pre-bubble room in Norfair, pre-Ridley, old mother brain room, etc.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
the only thing I can think that may allow for a dual CWJ would be some strange left/right quirk. I have tested the left/right up/down stuff in this game, but not to a serious extent. Holding left+right does change the chances of a CWJ being possible. Mostly if you hold both buttons, Samus will not go into her (I am about to walljump) pose until much later. It is a weird phenomenon and should be tested further.
I am still working on the run, but I hit a snag. I just got screwed with the phantoon drops, so I am trying to find a way to collect missile drops without losing much time.
Yeah phantoon is such a run killer, to manipulate him is extremely time consuming. The best way I have found at this point is to delay the entry to WS basement by 1 frame at a time which will make phantoon drop other refills when you are done and if you are lucky allow you to enter his room earlier. The thing is that it takes ~1 hour to test each delay... I could not implement your missile trick because his drops where horrible and I won't try to beat him up to 12 times to get the best drops and gain at most a few frames.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Though I haven't found a good use for it yet, it is possible to do a walljump while samus is facing a wall. It only works on walls where samus is left of the wall. Here is a short example of it. You made need to watch it in slow motion to see it though. Sorry if this was already known.
here
Indeed, I remember it mentioned by Michael, but never knew what it was, until I completely forgot about it. I actually have a few rough ideas on when it can be used, which I will try to test in the evening.
That sneaky Michael, amazing how many tricks he's found.
[EDIT]
Re-checked it, and it actually was BoltR's find. Sorry BoltR!
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Nevermind. I just tried it, and it didn't provide the effect I hoped it would help with, which is: canceling upward CWJ's speed boost. Why would I want to do that? It could help saving a frame each time you can jump a frame earlier to climb up a ledge you're running under where an upward CWJ would bring you too far from the ledge to continue walljumping or land on it on time, and turning around at the last frame wouldn't let you clear the ceiling. Sounds confusing, I know. :D
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/21/2007
Posts: 94
Location: United States
when trying to test dual CWJ's with a strange left/right quirk, as hero suggested, I found that you can't hold left and right at the same time. when I try to, left cancels out right. it might be my set-up, but just wanted to see if it is just me.
Current TAS Project:
SMR 100% TAS - 12.5% of the way done with the initial route (I'm going to then release it for further improvments)
Further progress
591 frames ahead of the old one, overall I sacrifice a lot of time to get ammo but it pays of in the end, some ammo pickups might have been a little slow though. I have some new room strategies and hope that at least something might be of use for hero :)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
dude that was sweet :D
I will post some comments after I fully analyze the whole video. Kudos on using that blue mockball that I posted a few months ago, was it actually faster? Saturn told me that it was slower, but I didn't feel like confirming it.
here are my notes:
42500 - Is it possible to keep phantoon from moving after he is killed? I never bothered to get this to work either. I hate this guy. You got EXCELLENT drops, btw.
43800 - I think you might have been able to perform a clean mockball out of phantoons room and into the little tunnel (that's the way I did it). The bounce seemed pretty slow, though I could be wrong.
43900 - You ran on top of the robot's head! Thats was cool, and something I didn't think to test. Was it faster?
45100 - Might have been better to get a lower boost and start the jump before exiting into the main room.
45666 - I am surprised you opted to jump here instead of killing the little ball. I suppose you needed those super missiles really bad?
45700 - The diagonal shot in the shootable blocks was really clever! Do you know how much faster that was?
45780 - Upward CWJ for the win :) Glad you caught this one. My run has a few of these in it too.
46350 - You could have damage boosted off the electricity in this room. It saves alot of time. There are 2-3 different spots that will work. It is a big timesaver only if you have the energy to spare.
46970 - Glad to see you implemented this CWJ that I had mentioned before. It is sweet.
47600 - I too realized that running down into the water is significantly faster than jumping early.
51850 - This was really clever too. I missed this one. How much faster was that mockball?
53700 - I would love it if we could figure out a way to descend down this room without having to unmorph.
54090 - I knew about this strategy already, but isn't it 20-30 frames slower? Unless my test was really shitty. Maybe you did it just because of the drops?
54650 - Was the bomb tech faster than the unmorph tech? I never bothered to test with my 1.51 run, I just went with the bomb tech because it was different :P
55300 - Moozooh found a way to kill the skree and collect a free item drop while still executing the damage boost. I guess you did not know about this?
55590 - No spike boost? I think this room could have been faster with a CWJ. I realize you had to charge your beam, but it seems like it would have been possible.
61000 - Strange turn around you did here.. wouldn't the spin jump turnaround have been faster?
62000 - Clearing that ledge with the damage boost would have saved a ton of time. I can confirm that it is possible, but I did not test the amount of time that the set up requires.
63800 - Strange turn around animation again..
Overall this run is excellent, thus far.
42500 - I doubt it, the only way I could think of is to let him get all the way to the middle of the room before I start shooting him, but then I would not be able to kill him.
43800 - I doubt it, I left with the highest speed I could and even with jumping so high that I just barely cleared the door I was not able to do that. And I doubt that it would be worth it to skip some of the refills.
43900 - IIRC it was as fast as the usual method, maybe a frame faster because of a lower point to start the boost from. I used it mainly because it looked nice :)
45100 - I tried several boosts here and this was the best I got.
45666 - Well if you look where the movie ends you will notice that I have 8 Super Missiles, the absolute minimum I could have allowed at that point was 7, so even with all the small sacrifices I make I still just barely can make it. It costs about 10 frames IIRC and I don't think there is any Super I could have gotten faster than that.
45700 - Using this I was able to land on the upper floor on the same frame as if using the old method, but here I can jump to the next ledge instantly instead of running for several frames so I think it saves something like 7-10 frames.
46350 - I doubt I have the sufficient energy to do that without loosing time in the end. As you see my health management was also very precise as I go down all the way to 30 energy before getting the E-tank.
51850 - A couple of frames, also it looks cooler :P
54090 - Yes it is about 30 frames slower, making it my slowest refills I think. Skipping them would in the end probably be faster than to take them even with the future sacrifices I would have to make. I was very careful with refills at this point because I did not know how many Supers I could get in norfair. On the other hand the old method would have left me with below 30 hp somewhere in norfair if not making even further sacrifices so maybe it evens out. Also it looks sweet :)
54650 - I think it is actually pretty much exactly as fast as the other strategy, at most I think 1 frame faster or 1 frame slower. I used it because it looked cleaner.
55300 - Actually now that I think of it I did know about it, I did it in my SM:I TAS (it is possible to kill them both actually getting both drops while still doing the damage boost though it is a little slower) but forgot about it here. This could perhaps have made the slower flower room unnecessary.
55590 - According to my tests a CWJ would at most have been a couple of frames faster, but at the same time it would force me to use a missile which I kind of need for later and skip a super which I definitely need for later. (waiting for the super makes the CWJ strat slower)
61000 - I have to shoot the sphere from mid air (spazer or wave is needed otherwise) and it is faster to do it like this than to land and then make to spin I think.
62000 - That would have been nice, I was not able to get any closer than I did but I always took the damageboost ASAP though.
63800 - Same as with speedbooster.
Oh and the blueball method. I'm not sure how much faster it was but it was faster, counting from the save room I was ~25 frames faster to the elevator and that is with taking a extra super in the main shaft to make up for the lost one in the room before. I think I could have saved some of that time anyway from better optimizing my old run but still I think this strategy is a good 15-20 frames faster if not having to pick up very many supers.
EDIT: I checked and the blueball strategy saved precisely 21 frames from the save station room to picking up high jump. So I think it is 19 or 20 frames faster than the old strategy. (my video for comparison was the old any% and I think it is improvable by a frame or so) Also picking up a 3rd super in the elevator room was actually not slower at all, instead I gained a frame in that room...
Very nice WIP, Cpadolf. I'm glad that some of my first time shown strategies from the mixed speed demos video were of use for you.
Also, it seems you finally realized the key for speeding the run up in the end result (which is to get many important refills even on cost of a little slowdown). Good job. This version of yours now looks very similar to my any% run overall.
hero of the day wrote:
45700 - The diagonal shot in the shootable blocks was really clever! Do you know how much faster that was?
It's a nice little trick I used in my any% as well. It only requires you to manipulate the shot collision detection to make it hit right in the middle of the 3 blocks to break them all in one turn. Respect to Cpadolf to find it on his own as well. :-)
hero of the day wrote:
51850 - This was really clever too. I missed this one. How much faster was that mockball?
Thats surprising, since you basicly used the same mockball tech when entering WS as well. This one is of more use though, as it saves around 5 frames (compared to 2 for the WS entrance one). Once again good job to find it on your own, Cpadolf.
hero of the day wrote:
53700 - I would love it if we could figure out a way to descend down this room without having to unmorph.
It's impossible no matter what you do. Samus just gains too much falling speed at that point and will always hit the bottom platform if you don't use the unmorph tech.
hero of the day wrote:
54650 - Was the bomb tech faster than the unmorph tech? I never bothered to test with my 1.51 run, I just went with the bomb tech because it was different :P
That doesn't sound very convincing, hero. :-)
But yes, the bomb tech is a bit faster. I tested and compared it in my any% very carefully.
And regarding the strange turn arounds at Speed Booster and Wave Beam, as Cpadolf said, there is no other choice since you can't shoot the sphere from the ground without having wide beams like Spazer or Wave. This turn around method is the fastest possible in this conditions, I tested it very carefully when doing the any%.
The only trick I missed in my run was the upward CWJ in the green bubble room, which Kriole showed in his last RBO WIP as well. I'm not sure if it's faster than my RBO strategy with HJ-Boots (since you start walljumping from the right wall in a lower position that way), but it's definitely somewhat faster to do if not having HJ-Boots, because you have to land on the bottom platform below the wall anyway.
All in all a very nice run so far, keep it up!
