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Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well I updated mine abit with my new knowledge and managed to save a bunch of extra frames. I still couldn't get any extra height from the double jump, and could never make it up to the lantern. So I just used the enemy to boost me onto the ledge. I think it's faster anyways because you don't need to pause your forward movement at all. A problem I ran into doing this was, it was so much faster than what I had I ended up needing to pause a frame in the drop down form the ledge to avoid being hit back from the dog. I also improved the wall jumping by a frame or two on the first wall. Using Down+B still doesn't work on the first three guys, I really REALLY wonder what makes it so you can't hit them in mid air. Oh the reason the rerecords are so low (it says it is like 6, ha yeah right), is because the emulator likes to crash when I save, and then unpause. When it crashes I am able to start from latest save state, but it forgets how many save states i've used. I estimate I used about 240 so far. Newer version is below.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Ok I played through level 2, and tried to get it as entertaining as I possibly could. I only killed the enemies which were required to not be slowed down or hit, and only get items which I required to accomplish this. I found an interesting glitch when falling down between screens. It seems that if you grab the ladder at the exact right time, it will move you down a screen, but also kill you. So when you arrive on the next screen you are dead. Please leave a comment on how you think i'm doing thus far, i'm new to this, so if there is a glaring mistake please tell me now. New Version: Is in a newer post.
Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 108
b wrote:
I found an interesting glitch when falling down between screens. It seems that if you grab the ladder at the exact right time, it will move you down a screen, but also kill you. So when you arrive on the next screen you are dead.
Heh, yeah, that glitch is a pain. I spent tons of re-records on that ladder in death valley because of it. The first few times, I thought I hit the ladder properly, so I saved it in haste. 6 frames later, I was dead. Oops. Nice job wall-climbing. I didn't think it could be done faster. I was doing away/jump, toward x2 instead of away/jump, toward x3 like you did. At least, I think that's what you're doing, as I tested it and it looks the same. I'm quite happy with my run so far, but I would like to improve my wall climbs, so looks like I'll be doing it over. Hey, I like how you managed to glitch the drum track in death valley. That happens a lot in this game. I always thought it was funny when I played this game as a kid.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
I did the same thing with the catching the ladder thing, saved it without thinking about it, and got confused why couldn't move after a little bit, wasted a bunch of saves there heh. The wall climbing I do jump/away, then x3 towards. Strangely enough it seems that you need to do x2 on the first jump or else you catch the ladder instead of just hover upwards. As for the drum track, do you mean when I jump through the wall and end up on an invisible platform, then jump off the top of the screen instead of taking the ladder? That was kind of by complete accident; I was trying to get the second ladder jump to work inside the wall and somehow landed on that peice of ground, which is acually quite large. The thing that gets me is that you can jump off the top of the screen and it loads to the next screen, but if you fall off the bottom you die. Boo to that. I have mapped out my movements for the next act, and will whip it up shortly. There isn't as much interesting things to do in the next act, most of the enemies and in the exact spots to be able to kill or dodge. Even the birds which every call annoying can easily be dodged and ran off the screen without any trouble. The most annoying part is the VERY end of the snow area where there is a sword guy right where you need to jump to, of course I was playing it at full speed trying to make this jump. With slow downs it shouldn't be too hard. The only thing that is special that I can think of now is using one of the cats to boost me through an enemy and save a few frames, and possibly using one of the crosses the ghouls throw to boost me to one of the vine things which will save probably about 5 frames.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well I have done 3-1 and 3-2, but stopped at the boss, as I will probably redo the two sections anyways. At first I was going to get the fire skill down the ice chute in 3-2, but couldn't manage to get down it in a timely manner. So I thought about it and figured if I got the throwing stars in 3-1 I could kill one of the two sword people and give myself enough room to fall down. Of course while doing this I found the OTHER fire skill. Which as it turns out, is faster and much easier to get. This is why I seem to get the throwing stars for no reason. Second thing that bugs in the redo is, at the first green vine in 3-2, the stupid lower ghoul REFUSED to throw knives at me, no matter what I did. So I couldn't use one to boost myself onto the vine. Before I did this by jumping the exact right frame and going in between the ghoul and the cross without getting hit by either, then when the cross arced back down it hit me in the back of the head, driving me forward. All of this was done without losing any forward momentum. The second version is MUCH slower. Also i'm not sure I collected enough technique points on the way to the boss, I think I will seek out Lezard's run to see how he tackled the boss. Because how I see it now it will take a long time, and he mentioned losing the few seconds to get the fire powerup is gained in the boss fight. There are some aspects I like about it, mostly the near misses with the birds and the bullets, but it's something I will PROBABLY redo.
Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 108
b wrote:
As for the drum track, do you mean when I jump through the wall and end up on an invisible platform, then jump off the top of the screen instead of taking the ladder?
Uh... no, I have no idea what you just asked. What I meant was, in death valley (2-2), when you spin slash down that infamous ladder, you kill an enemy right as you enter the next area, which glitches and disables one of the sound channels (the one that the drums are on). It comes back when you kill the next enemy. Watch it, and listen to the music when you go down that ladder.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Oh, I didn't notice, I was listening to music while I did that section of the run. Yay for side effects I guess, wonder exactly why that happens. What I was asking was: Shortly after the drum track comes back, there is a ladder which you climb up to the next screen. You jumped through the wall and climbed up the ladder. I jumped into the wall, and just jumped up to the next screen from an invisible platform. As for the boss at the end of 3, what I have calculated right now is you will need a minimum of 20 points to kill the boss. That is if you can hit it both times with your sword on either side of the screen, and if all the fireballs hit it each time it jumps over you. I'll see if this is even possible soon. If you find a good way of killing it, let me know ;p Oh also I definately am doing act 3 again, I found a faster way of doing things.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Ok I fixed act 3 up a bit, I think I got an extra red powerup then I needed to in 3-2, but that is easy to fix. In 3-1 I improved the area where the fire power up is, still takes two hits, but the second improves time by a second or two over the last time. 3-2 that stupid ghoul still wouldn't throw the cross at me, so I just went through it and up the vine, loses about 1 second. This version includes a sloppy boss fight, I can probably cut it down by about 3 seconds, by shooting it with the fire instead of hitting it with the sword on the second jump. The most annoying thing about this boss is the extremely wierd hit box. The flame goes right through the sprite most of the time, and you some times get hit even though your no where near the boss. I'll look into this to see if it can be abused. Update: I managed to kill the boss in 1 and a bit less jumps (for a total of 3), I won't bother to post the new movie as it's basicly the same. I now begin my planning on act 4. It looks pretty straight forward... Update 2: Ok well i've scrapped the run that I did so far and started again. I have redone level 1 so far, changing the route slightly, and on the first runthrough gained about 100 frames. I then ran through it again when I found another trick I could use to save me wasting some frames to get an item, and kill an enemy which lowered another 21 frames. The boss fight is also a frame or two faster, and I don't think it can be done faster. While killing the first boss again, I managed upon a strange glitch. I reduced his life bar to empty and he didn't die. I wasn't playing with slow downs, and wasn't recording, so I don't know how I did it. Other than I used the special into him. I'll try to reproduce the sound glitch in Act2-2, although I can sadly make no promises.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
So i've completed up to where I was before I restarted the run. The only part which I beleive is not perfect is collecting the fire technique in 3-1. In the previous version the crosses the ghoul threw were arranged that I could use one to bounce up, and when I jumped over to get the power up, I used the next one to bounce myself back onto the plaform with the ghoul. This saved from frames which are lost by how slow you fall backwards. I have NO IDEA AT ALL how to get this to happen in the new version, as I don't see the pattern behind the crosses than it throws. I can start the level near from scratch, and if I play up to that point as fast as possible, it throws them in that pattern again. The only way it seems to change is if I wait a long time, well long enough that just doing it without manipulating them would be quicker. The strangest part is, the route I used is the exact same as my v3 route, and is basicly identicle to the frame. I can say this because alot of the jumps I make require to be accurate to the frame. And yes, i've tried doing many things, slashing the sword abunch, pausing the game, and getting different items don't seem to change it. Only waiting a time unit or two seems to effect it, which is out of the question. Anyways about this version. The first thing you will notice is that I kill alot less guys, and in the first act collect alot less items. I only kill the enemies which would get in my way, and would slow my down by not killing them. I do this because the slash which is required to do this uses a frame of forward momentum. Which obviously causes the video to be slower. I do not, however, beleive that this makes the video any less entertaining. Enemies are not easily dodged in this game, as they are placed in places designed to get in your way, or knock you down a pit. The hit boxes on some enemies are just the right size that if you jump a frame early, you get hit by an invisible box which extends past the sprite, and a frame late you hit with the same box. Acually, alot of enemies have hitboxes which aren't the same size as the sprite. The birds, and the boss of 3-3 are good examples of these; as in my video you will see times where I appear to pass through part of a bird, or against the boss some of the fireballs miss. On that topic, I am very pleased with this boss fight, as I manage to kill him faster than i've done previously. The fireballs which miss are sadly unavoidable. As the hitbox is near the bottom of the sprite, and to make all three connect instead of 2 would cause me to have to wait extra time, which would throw off the timing of hit on the other side of the room. Plus, with the amount of damage the fireballs do, to the amount of life bars the boss has, you can afford to miss two shots. Either way, here is the movie file so far: http://free.angeltowns.com/btr/Ninja%20Gaiden%20(U)%20by%20b%20v4.zip As always please leave comments, and suggestions. Although I do beleive no one is reading this thread other than OmegaFlareX, so it will probably be a while until my next progress report. Oh and that other ghoul which wasn't throwing ANY crosses which stopped me being able to boost onto the vine finally cooperated, yay.
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Well, I was reading your thread and watched your movie. Quite amazing. I'm working on Ninja Gaiden 3 myself, which is a bit different, but there are some similarities like in the wall jumps. So you are lookin pretty good so far, keep it up.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Ok small update, i'm back to classes in University so I won't be working on it as much. I was playing around in the game and found yet another shortcut in act1-1, which honestly I don't know how I missed before. This means I have to redo everything again, as hex editing fcm format files is beyond me. The total from count for act 1, from reset to when the screen totally fades to black, and the status bar dissapears is 2365. Which is 52 frames faster than v4. Yay.
Former player
Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462
Impressive work, b. I played around with this game a little but couldn't even match the time you previously had for act 1-1. I'm looking forward to the completion of this movie.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well University is taking up alot of time, so I haven't progressed all that much. So far the boss of 4-4 is my favourite as you can beat him (them?) in ~40 frames. There are a few small improvements in acts 2 and 3. In act 2 it's where I was previously asked if you could just jump onto the small wall. Here I managed to make Ryu grab onto think air and boost myself through the block instead of having to climb up the wall. In act 3 I had some minor movement improvements, and avoided taking a hit where it acually only gave the illusion of going faster, but is acually quite a bit faster.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
To give you guys an idea of the progress which i'm making on the game, I have decided to put together a short little teaser. See if you notice the glitch against the first boss as I managed to do it while recording, too bad it doesn't help in any possible way... It can be obtained here.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
You mean that the boss stays on 0 health and doesn't die?
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Yes, and i'm not entirely sure why it happens. I've done it without being hit before, so I doubt it's something like me getting hit at the same time the damage is done. It probably has to do with the method damage is calculated with the jump and slash move. It does different amounts of damage, and from differenent distances almost every time you use it. If you watch the battle frame by frame you will see that the first hit does 2 damage, and is from far away, the other hits which happen much closer to the sprite do much more damage. However, damage doesn't seem to be calculated based on distance, because you can start in very close to him, and the first hit still can do 2 damage. Of course it can also do 5 or 6 too. This strange damage range/calculation can be seen on many bosses when you kill them, as they start to explode a few frames before the damage is taken off of the life gauge.
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 3
Wow! I just watched your time attack for ninja gaiden and it was great! My friend used to play it quite a lot on his nes for speed and had it at about 12 min for his best run (so he says). I guess there was only one thing I saw that you might have missed... In the second section of 6-2 before you get to the screen where there is only a ladder to climb (around 9:35 on the avi file), you kill a guy and a bird and then jump down to kill a hopping thing and climb the ladder from there. I remember when my friend played the game, he just jumped directly from the edge of the platform with the guy on it to the ladder and it took him directly to the next screen (bypassing the hopping thing). That aside, I was very impressed! Thanks for taking the time to make it =)
Skilled player (1416)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
I think it does one hit per frame, which may be too fast for the life gauge to keep up properly. Nothing special.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
shimaknight wrote:
Wow! I just watched your time attack for ninja gaiden and it was great! My friend used to play it quite a lot on his nes for speed and had it at about 12 min for his best run (so he says). I guess there was only one thing I saw that you might have missed... In the second section of 6-2 before you get to the screen where there is only a ladder to climb (around 9:35 on the avi file), you kill a guy and a bird and then jump down to kill a hopping thing and climb the ladder from there. I remember when my friend played the game, he just jumped directly from the edge of the platform with the guy on it to the ladder and it took him directly to the next screen (bypassing the hopping thing)
Blarg, your right, and I can give you a reason why I didn't do that too... it stems from that bird which I killed a little earlier. When I first went through that section I didn't kill the bird at all, and it kept me from jumping late enough to trigger that screen change. I went back killed the bird, and SOMEHOW forgot to do that anyways. I acually didn't notice until you brought it up. At this point i'm kind of torn about redoing it, as it would only save 2-3 seconds, and i'm 95% sure hexing in a replacement would throw off the later parts of the movie. I will look for further improvements to make redoing it worth it though... Also about your friend beating it in 12 minutes... I'm really not so sure about that. sdkess has a speedrun on his site which is ~18.5 minutes and Lezard has made a timeattack which was just under 12...
Post subject: Recently published NES Ninja Gaiden video...
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 173
Location: Bethel, VT
...I think should be given a star. Play the game, and tell me his run is not extraordinarily good. Now, I realize the stars are for particular amazing videos only, but I am a huge fan of the game, and have beaten it many times, and I found it much more amazing then the super mario brothers movie (although the shortness of the SMB run is definately astonishing). I will say that I am not an expert when it comes to recognizing subtle sloppiness; and I encourage people to come out and give me a good reason why this should not get a star; but if no one does, I encourage Bisqwit to give this movie a star.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well, there is for now a mistake which cost me 2 seconds, which most people wouldn't see. Luckily shimaknight pointed out that I was half asleep and missed it. For now i'm going to search other small improvements, which will probably be in technique rather than speed, and fix it up. Expect the fix before next week.
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 173
Location: Bethel, VT
Oh, I see.... Well, Bisqwit, hold on to that star; I want to see it when the perfected (read: improved) video comes out next :p
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well it will look 99% the same... it's just changing one jump. Hell you probably won't even notice the difference ;p Edit: Ok I tried to hexedit it, but as I thought it wouldn't work properly. Everything works fine up to 6-3, but then it throws off the randomness of the enemies. As it stands fixing the problem will save 62 frames, but I think I will be able to shave off another 3-4 by doing the whole thing again.
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757
BoltR wrote:
Also about your friend beating it in 12 minutes... I'm really not so sure about that. sdkess has a speedrun on his site which is ~18.5 minutes and Lezard has made a timeattack which was just under 12...
I'm curious to see a human do it that fast... the current TG World record sits at 13m36s. [And I should know since I personally verified it and did the report on it] Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Player (71)
Joined: 8/13/2004
Posts: 205
i agree though, the game is so damn hard, that this run really is amazing
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