Really bad news...
I don't think a TAS of this game can be done.
The RNG calculation for SF2 is IDENTICAL, line for line, to SF1. The function for both games is:
R2 = remainder((R1 * 13 + 7)/65536)
R1 = R2
Now, for both games, this may get executed 1-100 times in 1 frame. Thus, to figure out what happens at execution 55, you just need to know R1 before the frame, and execute the previous formula 55 times.
In Shining Force 1, R1 could easily be manipulated by controller input, the frame before the next set of RNG calculations. Thus, nearly any one of the 65536 possible values could be achieved.
In Shining Force 2, R1 can only be manipulated by the player by opening a menu. Additionally, the exact same formula executes once per frame that the menu is open. Thus, the value you may want, which is one out of 65536 possibilities, may take that many frames to get to. Thus, the perfect value could be as many as 18 seconds away!
If anyone finds a way to manipulate FFDEA4, other than what is expressed here, then a TAS is possible. Otherwise, you'd have a long boring run waiting inside menus.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Hum is it for turn manipulation or attack manipulation ?
if you can't manipulate attack and such, then it's almost impossible, if you can't manipulate turn, the run will be a little bit longer, but I doubt that it would be that boring to watch. It would look less professional than SF1 but it would be entertaining.
Really bad news...
I don't think a TAS of this game can be done.
Consider that Chrono Trigger's RNG cannot be manipulated in any way shape or form whatsoever.
Consider that Chrono Trigger has a published TAS.
Do you think a game where luck manipulation is limited in usefulness has less TAS potential than a game where luck manipulation is downright impossible?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Ok, point made, Upthorn. :)
I may have been a bit hasty in my "impossible to TAS" idea. In reality, the game is very very similar to SF1. Additionally, counter attacks may really reduce the need to have the ultimate control over battle order I did.
So, if someone is willing to do the TAS, I can possibly write the tools for how to achieve it. Essentially, the game is almost identical in form to SF1. It is too bad they eliminated the controller input to the RNG. I've already figured out battle order, since the code is nearly identical.
Here is the rub: It would be by far the most complex planning/input. You get essentially one chance per character to select the RNG value that will dictate a HUGE number of in game choices.
Thus, lets say that 3 enemies attack you after your turn. You'd need to plan all 3 outcomes before closing the menu. Additionally, the 3 outcomes are widely distant from each other. Thus, you'd need to input into the equation every possible variable, attack, miss rate, defense, crit rate, counter rate, for each individual attack. Thus, thats 5 variables, for 3 attacks, so 15 different inputs.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Just as an example, here is the arrange battle code from Shining Force 2
02:557C 7C 3D MOVEQ #$3D,D6
02:557E 7E 3E MOVEQ #$3E,D7
02:5580 41 F8 LEA ($F71A),A0
02:5584 30 10 MOVE.w (A0),D0
02:5586 32 28 MOVE.w $0002(A0),D1
02:558A B2 00 CMP.B D0,D1
02:558C 6F 06 BLE #$06 [02:5594]
02:558E 30 81 MOVE.w D1,(A0)
02:5590 31 40 MOVE.w D0,$0002(A0)
02:5594 54 88 ADDQ.L #2,A0
02:5596 51 CF DBFa D7,#$FFEC [02:5584]
02:559A 51 CE DBFa D6,#$FFE2 [02:557E]
And here is Shining Force 1.
00:8F38 7C 1D MOVEQ #$1D,D6
00:8F3A 7E 1E MOVEQ #$1E,D7
00:8F3C 41 F8 LEA ($9C08),A0
00:8F40 30 10 MOVE.w (A0),D0
00:8F42 32 28 MOVE.w $0002(A0),D1
00:8F46 B2 00 CMP.B D0,D1
00:8F48 6F 06 BLE #$06 [00:8F50]
00:8F4A 30 81 MOVE.w D1,(A0)
00:8F4C 31 40 MOVE.w D0,$0002(A0)
00:8F50 54 88 ADDQ.L #2,A0
00:8F52 51 CF DBFa D7,#$FFEC [00:8F40]
00:8F56 51 CE DBFa D6,#$FFE2 [00:8F3A]
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
DarkKobold, in fact, it's not that hard to do a calculation software. It's pretty easy to take every variable in account, the only thing I don't know, it's if you can extract data from Gens to put them somewhere else.
If not, then it would have to be hardcoded in the RamWatch.
DarkKobold, in fact, it's not that hard to do a calculation software. It's pretty easy to take every variable in account, the only thing I don't know, it's if you can extract data from Gens to put them somewhere else.
If not, then it would have to be hardcoded in the RamWatch.
The biggest problem becomes rarity in stacking effects. For example, in SF1, A double hit is rare (4-8%), a critical is rare (4-8%), but a double hit double critical is extremely rare (~.6%). With SF1, I had full control of the RNG pre-value, making the extreme rare common.
For SF2, there is little control over the value, and only at specific places. Thus, if you wanted to stack a miss-counter-double-critical, miss-counter-double critical, it would be nigh short of impossible. Definitely, a no damage taken run is impossible.
Mechuyael wrote:
Dromiceius pointed out that the Japanese version might have a time-based RNG. Perhaps that means that it works exactly the same as SF?
I checked into the J version. The RNG works identical. The ram watch locations are even identical.
ZeXr0 wrote:
And i'll be sure to help with this game, I know it really well :) I'm not quite good with TAS, but I can comment with improvement I see. ;)
I don't know this game. I didn't play it growing up. I'd rather someone come forth and say they want to use tools Upthorn and I develop to TAS this game. I won't do the actual TAS.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
I had a chat with Mr. Kobold and I could make the run if given the tools, but I have no idea how long I'd take to do it. AND I wouldn't start right away, I'm going to be busy for the next week especially and in coming weeks somewhat but if I had the tools to make it work I would have the motivation to get it done. It's a seriously fantastic game and I already did a bunch of work to get a TAS ready so I could see this panning out beautifully--provided the manipulation comes out well!
Twisted Eye, be sure to could me in ;) I'll help you as much as I can, just be sure to send a couple of wip so I can help you with strategy and such ;)
I looked into this more last night. I've got code for predicting both attacks and battle order, but I'm not 100% sure it will work past the first battle.
Also, this is going to be hellishly more difficult, since the rates for misses, criticals, doubles, and counters are all currently 1/32.
I'll post a starter WIP tomorrow, or over the weekend. Plus, I should be able to lock down requests for a special GENs version.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Good news, I hope you'll be able to do it ;) I have much more knowledge in Shining Force 2 than with Shining Force 1.
I hope I'll be able to help you more than I could in Shining Force 1.
As promised:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/136230091/Shining%20Force%20II%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
It is nowhere near as impressive as SF1.
Oh. and I had misspoken earlier. It is a maximum of 18 minutes between 2 RNG values, with the RNG executing once per frame.
Also, killing characters to save time appears to be a moot point. The game has auto-revive built into many battles, so I may abuse that.
Criticals appear to do 150% damage, Double attacks do 200%, and counters do 50%. This reduces the usefulness of both criticals and counters.
Apparently, there may be many more bugs in the Japanese version. It may be worth switching to be able to abuse them.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I'll be sure to look at this as soon as I get home :)
EDIT : you should use the code that speed up the cursor, it would be really useful and it would be a major time saver.
EDIT : taking damage is a must, and it would add some diversity. I felt a little suspense when I was watching. Like omg, what he's doing, he wouldn't kill Chester in the first battle, he need it !
I think you can play with this to create suspense and to entertain. But use the speed "cheat" which is only used to make the game goes a little faster.
speed cheat? No idea what you are talking about! Do tell!
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
It's really useful, and it's really faster than normal game play. You should try it, you'll see a net difference. The cursor is faster, I think that the screen is faster too, and the enemies decision are faster I think.
Did some experimenting with this. It not only speeds up Cursor movement, it speeds up question dialogs, and text and face dialogs (no move in and move out of picture, simply appear and disappear). However, whether or not this code will be allowed on this site is a totally different question.
I could see this being quite controversial.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
Hey, since the last time we've talked, a lot of things have gone down in my world, and I am hundreds of miles away from my computer for another couple weeks. I might still be up to helping out with this with what time I have once I get things all back together. Awesome seeing that there's still progress going on!
Also, I don't see how the 'turbo speed' would be unallowed, it's probably preferred actually. As long as you don't turn on 'control CPU' in the process ;) hm. I wonder if turning on 'Game completed' and waiting after the credits for the bonus Boss Only battle would be cool?
I personally think the extra battle after the credits should totally be done as well, it would be interesting to see how quickly you can destroy everything without any regards to your personal safety :P
One single thing I noticed in that first run that seems like an unusual choice: why "easy" as opposed to "ouch" for difficulty? iirc, the cpu was smarter on higher difficulties, or would that hurt things more than the already difficult to manipulate nature of the game would?
I remember the AI being quite cruel on "Ouch".. after beating the game on easy I went back and lost the first battle multiple times on ouch before I finally beat it. Memories of yelling "Dodge, Sarah! Dodge!" followed by that nasty crunch sound... ='(
Judging from what I've read, manipulating enemies is already enough of a chore, so I think easy is acceptable. Thats a personal preference though, as is me wanting to see the boss battle and/or the fairy battle! Dooooo it! =)
