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Posted: 8/11/2007 3:36 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I didn't. :-)
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/11/2007 3:40 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
Saturn wrote:
EDIT: And to everybody who still misunderstands me, I never said I'm superior to anybody. I just said that I got a perfect time. Speaking the truth is hopefully still allowed, or isn't it?
well maybe its perfect(or not i dont care really) but that wasnt making people think you'd be arogant i think it was more this one
And don't have too much hope on the escape either. You won't beat my times there, because they are perfect as well. I'm actually glad you work on it by now, so hopefully we will see your (slower but without seeing my version still impressive) result soon. :-)
it was a really hard one to read, you just can't say someone will be slower it looks like if you push your self up higher above others and thats not really nice :(!
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 8/11/2007 4:07 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Nice work Evilchen, so if you optimize the last room to you will get 4 ingame frames better then JXQ or what? Thats like halfway there :)
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/11/2007 4:12 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Reading this topic reminds me of a certain person who thought everything was perfect. Thus I don't want to mention his name here, but anyway . . .
Posted: 8/11/2007 4:32 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I just wanted to inform moozooh to not expect too much of his attempt and thus not get disappointed when he won't be able to beat (note that I didn't say match) my times (which he surely expected). I didn't mean he will be necessarily slower, it was just a assumption. It wasn't meant bad at all, really.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Reading this topic reminds me of a certain person who thought everything was perfect.
I didn't say "everything". I said my Ceres part (other than the very first room) is perfect. It's a fact.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/11/2007 4:52 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
I can say that it's perfect, for the moment, until someone finds a fastest way to do it
Posted: 8/11/2007 5:09 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
I'm quite sure that it is perfect (even without seeing it) if everything about it that saturn states is true, the only way it will be beaten is if something new is discovered (unlikely but hey it's Super Metroid). On an unrelated note I found a silly thing today, eye doors can't be killed by to high speed projectiles, they blow up inside them... Although i guess that this is the same thing that allows the green gate glitch.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/11/2007 5:33 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Cpadolf wrote:
On an unrelated note I found a silly thing today, eye doors can't be killed by to high speed projectiles, they blow up inside them... Although i guess that this is the same thing that allows the green gate glitch.
Correct. It skips the damage block (just like it does when passing the gate block), and crashes into the solid one behind it. This can happen when shooting at normal blue doors as well, resulting in not opening them.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/11/2007 8:12 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Hmm, I don't think I will get 00:23 now, I'm "only" ~48 seconds ahead of my old run with kraid done and I have to be ~85 seconds better when it's finished. Add to this that there are ~3-4 minutes of barley improvable points in what's left in my run (Statue room and MB) and theres an even smaller chance, Though I am happy with the run this far my goal now seems to be unreachable. Though this does not mean that it's not worth to try to get published, it's still entertaining and of a noticeable higher quality then the current any% run and at any points where it's comparable, faster or tied with JXQ (at least I think so).
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/12/2007 5:13 PM
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Tonski
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1778463772/TonskiTAS.smv Ceres finally done on my TAS. I'm not aiming to tie frames with JXQ with my current TASing skills, and I'm not going to submit this TAS anyway when it's published. I think I might do that jump in the second last room again, that looks like very unoptimized. :| I'd like to get some comments, good or bad. CPadolf: Just get X-Ray on the way to Tourian and skip MB. ;)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Posted: 8/12/2007 6:24 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Cpadolf: Remember that I aimed solely for real time, as that is the preferred method of timing at this website. If you get below a 40:58, I would say submit it. Otherwise it would be considered slower than mine even if your in-game clock was better. This was an issue I spoke to bisqwit about when I first submitted my run. Though I would not be opposed to having both runs published together, they should not be directly compared. Had I been aiming for in-game time, I would have gotten a 24 in my initial run, even without the torizo skip. The problem is that collecting all those extra items only saves a tiny bit of in-game time but cost a ton of real time. It was made clear to me that real time is more important here, while in-game is more important at the SDA and M2K2.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 8/12/2007 6:35 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
id like to post my opinion about that point ingame and realtime now too(it counts for everything not just for metroid but ill post it here since it gots often into moderation) if a game offers a ingame time counter at the end of the game like supermetroid or some other games i prefer to get the best ingame time rather then the real time counting the realtime was just to to compare tases/speedruns without an ingame timer... for example SDA it counts the metroid prime runs from there ingame timer because they have one( i think ), the other games were counted in other ways (cutting out the intro and stuff if i remember correct)
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 8/12/2007 6:53 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Yeah, but if a person was to truly truly aim for in-game time, it would consist of seeing the pause screen every 5 seconds. Think about it: 4 pause screens for gravity jumps in maridia 20 seconds of realtime sacrificed to gain 40 frames of in-game time! about 8 pause screen to turn off the high jump boots when they cause a slight slowdown in a room. about 40 seconds wasted right there to save about 3 seconds of in-game time. The horribly shitting looking mother brain battle with the murder beam. 2 more pause screens plus horrendous graphic glitches. Extreme backtracking routes. Excessive door entries. Collecting missile packs that save 10 frames of in-game time but cost 7 real time seconds per pack. Making real time delays to get a good ceres escape timer. The list goes on and on......
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 8/12/2007 7:43 PM
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bkDJ
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
As a silent reader of this thread, my two cents are that I agree realtime makes for a more entertaining-to-watch goal than in-game. (The only games I can think of that are worth going for in-game are games like mischief makers or sonic.)
Posted: 8/12/2007 7:49 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
And most of all turning to the pause screen for luck manipulation about 50 times, a fully ingame oriented run would most likely be at least 50 minutes. Really though getting accepted or not I will at least subbmit the smv here and see what people think about it. It will (no doubt) be longer in realtime then yours hero and therefore no it will most likely not be published but it's always fun to show people your work. Another reason not to get it published would of course be the fact that there are no definite goals of the run, I aim for ingame time but I still do sacrifices for realtime. And would it be published then there are even more problems after that, when your new any% run is finished then maybe it will be ~20 seconds slower then mine ingame but of course of higher quality, then would that once again obsolete the ingame run? (of course it should if such a thing where to happen I'm only making the point that jumping between obsoleting realtime runs with ingame ones and vice versa is dumb since they are very different. The only optimal solution would be to have both versions but that is out of the question since there are already 3 categories for SM. And about collecting those extra items, remember that they also add more variety thus entertainment to the run and therefore is not a dumb decision. Although the 100% run already shows excessive use of all items so that another downer for this run.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/12/2007 8:12 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
The in-game oriented any% run has some nice advantages to the realtime based one: It has more variety because it shows more new techs Samus gets from the items, and thus the run gets more entertaining to watch. 2 bosses get significantly faster to kill (less boring standing and shooting at one point), and instead you show more cool techs when passing additional rooms. Thinking that it also saves another minute on the game clock, are 2 major enough reasons for me to aim for that kind of run, not to mention that it also allows one to completely skip the menu entrance to switch off some items, making it a 100% uninterrupted run. And hero, murder beam is no longer a problem in the in-game oriented run, because we skip Spazer anyway, which saves more than enough time to avoid it, and instead makes a much better and shorter in realtime fight to watch. Also it's obvious that it's not worth to enter the menu to save 10 frames by sacrificing 400, for like gravity jumps and other minor stuff. On the other hand I also admit that it's cool to see one passing all the difficult areas with a only minorly equipped Samus. This is very difficult, and thus the entertainment factor surely is high there because of this, also because of a overall shorter route with less backtracking and the fastest real-time. In the end I think it's really the best to not compare this 2 runs at all, as they both have their fair amount of advantages. It will always depend on a persons opinion which run it will prefer.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/12/2007 8:12 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
You make some good points Cpadolf. I guess I wouldn't mind seeing your run obsolete mine just because I know yours will be of superior quality. The only beef I have with it is that the new standard would be in-game time instead of realtime, which opens up a whole new set of problems. I do like the variety that the in-game route offers, but it can become very bloated with realtime sacrifices that kill the flow of the run. I know your run will have good flow because you did not use excessive pause menus, but a future runner may enter the pause menu a thousand times just to beat your in-game time. With a solid goal of realtime there is no guess work, it is plain and simple "as fast as possible, no matter what".
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 8/12/2007 8:36 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
hero of the day wrote:
I know your run will have good flow because you did not use excessive pause menus, but a future runner may enter the pause menu a thousand times just to beat your in-game time. With a solid goal of realtime there is no guess work, it is plain and simple "as fast as possible, no matter what".
Good point. Though I doubt that a 50 in-game frames faster, but 2 minutes slower realtime run would obsolete the non-menu screen abused in-game time run. It would suck badly in entertainment, and it wouldn't change anything on the in-game clock at all, so I don't see this as a problem to worry about.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/12/2007 8:42 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Life would be better with a Metroid fanboy as sitemanager so he would accept all runs (RBO, ingame any%, realtime any% kejardon run, realtime 100% ingame 100% realtime low% ingame low% + all hack runs) Seriously though not half of those are needed. IMO if not both realtime and igame runs can exist at the same time the one with the most optimization should prevail AI I obsolete your run then you obsolete my run then Saturn obsoletes your run (If he ever finishes his ingame run) and so on, though at the very least it should be mentioned either in the submission text or in the introduction to the run that there exists a realtime/ingame run as an obsolete.
Saturn wrote:
Good point. Though I doubt that a 50 in-game frames faster, but 2 minutes slower realtime run would obsolete the non-menu screen abused in-game time run. It would suck badly in entertainment, and it wouldn't change anything on the in-game clock at all, so I don't see this as a problem to worry about."
Indeed, and at least I don't get bother with a few more item pickups that my run will contain and door transitions are to short to get botherd about, though there might be others who will... sadly I use on pause screen though...
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/12/2007 11:39 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I don't think you should assume that I am automatically gonna beat your run, or that Saturn will automatically beat my run. There are strategies that I know which you and Saturn don't know about, there are strategies you know which Saturn and I don't know, and there are strategies that Saturn knows which you and I don't know about. Who ever submits their run last has a natural advantage. Comparing TASing abilities is just pointless at this time. I really see no difference in the quality of work among almost all of us. Also, obsoletion based on more precision is a bad idea. It would be impossible to know which run is more optimized, since they would be collecting different items and using different routes.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 8/13/2007 5:19 AM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
I simply meant that with 95% certainty I can say that I will submit my run before either Saturn or you, or do either of you plan on having them done in a month? And after that I did asume that you would make yours before saturn finishes his since he has to do both his RBO and Redesign run's first, so no I'm not comparing by TASing ability I'm only assuming that if whoever makes a TAS will make it (or try to) then the existing run. But yes it's dumb to compare two very different runs.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 8/13/2007 8:30 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
hero of the day wrote:
There are strategies that I know which you and Saturn don't know about, there are strategies you know which Saturn and I don't know, and there are strategies that Saturn knows which you and I don't know about. Who ever submits their run last has a natural advantage. Comparing TASing abilities is just pointless at this time. I really see no difference in the quality of work among almost all of us.
I wouldn't bet on that. Knowledge is a very important factor here. Although I will sound bad again, I now passed every situation in such a run, and I know all the fastest possible strategies in each room. Sure there might be strats you use which I won't, but then there will most likely be slower. Too bad I can't show you my any% WIP so that you can see yourself what fast strategies are, and learn a ton of new ones as well, but it's just not finished, and a unfinished run won't be submitted, obviously.
hero of the day wrote:
Also, obsoletion based on more precision is a bad idea. It would be impossible to know which run is more optimized, since they would be collecting different items and using different routes.
It's pretty easy, actually. The in the end faster run is more optimized. Which route you take, or what items you refill is your problem, and it's irrelevant for judging the final completion time. Also you can see a perfect example of true precision very clearly in the Ceres and Zebes escapes from the timer. This should also be considered when judging a run, since it's a time every watcher can see, unlike the unnoticeable 1-2 realtime frames between door transitions.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 8/13/2007 8:48 AM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
Saturn wrote:
I wouldn't bet on that. Knowledge is a very important factor here. Although I will sound bad again, I now passed every situation in such a run, and I know all the fastest possible strategies in each room. Sure there might be strats you use which I won't, but then there will most likely be slower. Too bad I can't show you my any% WIP so that you can see yourself what fast strategies are, and learn a ton of new ones as well.
Okay you've pushed this too far now. Could you please shut up repeating yourself already? You think by displaying a benign manner, everybody is okay with your bold statements regarding perfection. We are not. I am 110% sure there are a lot of other people like me who are tired hearing this. Please stop posting similar posts. First rule of TASClub: Nothing is impossible. Now do not quote me on this and say yes but trust me I have tested everything, I know Samus personally and whatnot. Just stop.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 8/13/2007 9:20 AM
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upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (391)
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
Sega TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TASer of 2007
Saturn wrote:
And to everybody who still misunderstands me, I never said I'm superior to anybody. I just said that I got a perfect time.
Fact: it is impossible that you would have tested all possible input combinations for the given number of frames, as doing so would take millions of years, even for a robot. Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time. Fact: You claim to be certain you got a perfect time. Fact: Claiming perfection without data to support it is usually called "hubris" opinion: Hubris is to be avoided.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Posted: 8/13/2007 10:25 AM
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P.JBoy
Any
Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
upthorn wrote:
Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
That is not true. Some input combinations can't affect anything at all.
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