I'm confused about this possible route change for 100%. How would this new Maridia entrance allow getting the speed booster without the Varia to be faster?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Sorry bout the confusion. The maridia gate won't change the 100% runs route. Because you need to get the mainstreet missile pack, you must enter from the bottom anyway.
The 100% run can use one gigantic route change though. The norfair section should have been done without the varia. Since crocomire's area is not consiered a "hot" room, you only needed the varia for about 5 rooms, all of which could be completed with just 2 energy tanks and a little time spent collecting big energy balls. After killing crocomire, you will be given his power bomb set. With the newly acuired power bombs, you can complete kraid's lair immediately after exiting norfair and this has two huge benefits. 1) This eliminates the backtrack to collect kraid's missile tank, because you will have power bombs at this point. 2) You now have the speed booster for kraid's lair. Overall this route change would save ~20 in-game seconds and ~35 realtime seconds.
Wow hero, didn't we had this on m2k2 already?
To not unnecessary confuse JXQ, here the facts:
This route is definitely slower than what you used in your 100% TAS, because you would not only lose at least 15 sec on bug refilling before and after Speed Booster (which against the constant heat damage takes much more time than usual), but the Lava Missile in the 2nd heat room would make a 2-tank pass pretty much impossible without majorly slowing down to get health refills all the time as well. In that time you would surely get the Kraids Lair detour Missile already.
The only interesting alternative is to grab the PBs at Red Brinstar early, and then go to Kraids again, to save the Missile detour and some more time in Norfair by using some PB shortcuts. But apparentlly JXQ already tested it during the making of the 100%v2 TAS:
JXQ's Spread Sheet wrote:
Tests done for early power bombs are most likely improvable by a couple seconds, but most likely cannot make up for the slower progress made during the area getting the early power bombs.
25 in-game seconds of saving by using this route? Just a huge joke, really. It's slower because of the conditions mentioned above.
EDIT:
Also sub-37 100% run is impossible, no matter of the Torizo skip.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Saturn, it is really a shame that you think this way.
I have done rough run through of all the rooms. I am 100% positive that it is faster. I realize that in an unassisted run it would be impossible, so lets not compare to the conversation we had at M2k2.
JXQ will have 2 etanks, the high jump boots, and a spare reserve tank. With properly timed hits, the first 3 "hot" rooms can be completed with 100 energy to spare and not even tapping into the reserve tank (and yes that is with collecting the lava missile tank). I timed it and I was faster than JXQ in the first 3 rooms (mostly due to high jump boots). There is no way in hell he would need to spend that much time on the bug refills either, it is much less considering he will have a full reserve tank at that point. The only hard part will be collecting the wave beam. After that it is easy as cake.
I never said 25 in-game seconds either. I said 20. Maybe 20 is a little high, but seriously the realtime gains are ridiculous. 4 extra door transitions cut off.
All hot rooms including the Lava Missile until green bubble one with just 100 (one e-tank) of damage??
You seriously confused something here. Check my 1st RBO demo, I required 246 points for it, and this with HJ-Boots I even deequipped when unnecessary, without the Lava Missile, and without ANY damage boosts from enemies at all. Sure, it could probably be improved by ~5 less damage, but definitely not by 146, no matter if you get health refills or not.
And there is definitely no chance to skip this both pipe bug refills before and after Speed Booster, which waste very much time, even with perfect luck.
If you really tested and succeeded in what you just said, why not showing it to us? I take the risk to look like a dumbass if I see this smv, but I'm pretty sure you can't do it the way you described.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
No, 3 hot rooms with 100 hp left afterwards. (200 damage total).
Here is a very very shitty playthrough. Please note how unoptmized this is and how much energy I had left. On a real run, Samus could potentially have 120 hp left. Also please note that I went a little trigger happy with the super missiles, in a real run you would only need 2 or maybe 3 if you want to destroy the enemy in the 3rd room.
here
Now if your reserve tank is full (it should be because you can fill up at the norfair elevator room), you would have 200 HP at this point. Plus 2 more big energy balls gained in the bubble room. that makes for 240 hp entering the "hot" room with the pipe bugs. Upon entering, he could get another big energy ball from the green things hanging from the ceiling. Thats makes for 260 hp. JXQ needs to enter the pause screen one time in his run anyway so deequip the spazer, so he might as well do that now and load up the reserve tank at the same time. With that much energy Samus can make it to the Speed booster and back. The pipe bugs only need be visited once. Upon fighting the pipe bugs, he could fill up both tanks and the reserve (this is the only true delay in the entire route). It would be enough energy to make it to the wave beam and back. After wave beam, the only hot rooms left are very short and drain very very little energy. Upon killing crocomire he would have 3 full etanks which would literally put him in the exact same position he would be otherwise. Have the high jump would also speed up some of these rooms (another added benefit of the route).
36 minutes is very possible btw, there are plenty of other new (hero) improvements to be had in this game ;) Also he could have made some realtime sacrifices, but opted not to.
Not bad. With so many refills it wasn't surprising to pass through it with 200 damage. You did a slight mistake in your test though. In order to get the Lava Missile you have to morphball into the hole. You can't do it without, since it's too low placed. When you get it, you have to unmorph in the lava again (otherwise rolling out of it will be even slower), and since the morph/unmorph animation costs some time, doing so in lava will take you some more damage than what you did.
But ok, even then it seems indeed possible to skip the first pipe-bug refill delay. You will be forced to fully refill for Wave Beam though, which will cost at least 10 sec (time I required for one refill session in RBO with very optimized luck). It could indeed be possible that it's faster in realtime, but I still have my doubts it would be in in-game time, especially because of the many forced slowdowns to get refills during heat rooms and for the reserve tank.
Also keep in mind that the way to Crocomire will cost you at least 90 more damage points (from green bubble room counted), so without another major refill slowdown you wouldn't be able to make it to him which is another, probably more than 3 sec delay.
But since JXQ aims for realtime anyway, and because it's a really interesting route change, maybe this should indeed be worth a try. I think in-game time would be pretty much the same or slower with this route, but it should still be enough to hold 37 min.
You did a slight mistake in your test though. In order to get the Lava Missile you have to morphball into the hole. You can't do it without, since it's too low placed. When you get it, you have to unmorph in the lava again (otherwise rolling out of it will be even slower), and since the morph/unmorph animation costs some time, doing so in lava will take you some more damage than what you did.
Well, that's not fatal. Lava damages at the rate of 3 energy units per 4 frames, heat damages at 1 unit per 4 frames. So, according to this smv, morphing will amount to staggering 5 units of additional damage…
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Ah, this is all quite interesting. An additional thing that helps on this new route is getting the energy tank after Crocomire is a free refill. Are any of the rooms in Croco's area heat rooms? If not, then that section would pretty much be the same, except that you would have the Hi-Jump Boots already. Normally after a Norfair with Hi-Jump Boots first, not having the Hi-Jump E-Tank would make the Wrecked Ship spark impossible, but getting Kraid's E-Tank beforehand removes that concern.
If it's like everything else in Super Metroid, two vastly different strategies will amount to about a three frame difference in the end, hehe.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Here is another super sloppy test run showing how to obtain the wave beam using less than 300 hp and not ever tapping the reserve tank. Again, most rooms are done faster than JXQ's because I have the high jump boots, but not only that you can also see some of the new strats I have developed. If this were optimized, I would have collected a big energy ball from the fire ball enemy at the end leaving Samus with a potential 40-50 hp fully optimized. After exiting the room, I would then collect 2 more big energy balls from the little fire creatures in the bubble room (the ones inside the tunnel). I do believe the reserve tank would not ever need to be tapped, which would make the pipe bug refill area much much shorter. Not only that, but there are even more enemies on the way to crocomire which can give even more big energy balls.
Oh yea, I am that good ;)
Saturn, you saying that something's ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE is getting pretty old. Haven't you learned by now that you should never say never?
I have never said it's IMPOSSIBLE to do Varialess Norfair items collection in a 100% run (I think I did so in my RBO run as well, and this without even slowing down to collect any health refills on the way). I said it's impossible to pass the first 3 heat rooms with 100 damage points (200 HP left), which is true, since we just misunderstood each other and it's in fact the other way around. But I admit I didn't thought one could skip the first set of pipe bug refills, which will save a good amount of time. No matter what you do, you will still have to sacrifice at least 10 sec on refilling alone, which is pretty much for a TAS. And even if it would indeed be slightly faster than the common route, it wouldn't be more than 5 sec in the end, and thats not enough to make sub-37 possible.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Since when is a 5 second improvement a "huge joke", as you called it in your first post?
Here is a quick breakdown of everything that was once "impossible". The following list contains things that most people did not think could happen, yet did.
1. Torizo skip, proven by moozooh to be possible
2. Maridia Shinespark without hi-jump, proven by hero of the day to be possible
3. Tourian x-ray entry without the crystal flash, proven by hero of the day to be possible
4. 100% Varialess route is faster, proven by hero of the day to be true.
Soon to be proven possible:
1. The maridia green gate opened from reverse
There was more things, but these were the major ones.
Hero, when I wrote a "huge joke" I didn't thought that you could skip the first set of pipe bug refills before Speed Booster, which would make another 10 sec delay, and for sure would be slower or same fast at best. When you first said it could save 20 sec (althought it would be slower in this conditions), I said this is a huge joke.
Now that you can skip the first set of pipe bug refills, this changes things a bit, and might indeed be faster in the end, in my few by around 5 sec. The "huge joke" doesn't count for this anymore, since I realized the improved refill-strategy only later when you posted the smv and the detailed explanation.
The list is correct, but...
hero of the day wrote:
Soon to be proven possible:
1. The maridia green gate opened from reverse
this will fail. Geting a Super Missile through 2 solid blocks is definitely impossible, and thus will not happen. The only chance to open it is to skip the first solid block by shooting the Super slightly below it, but then you will miss the switch as well (technical fact), at least unless some unexplainable wonder would happen that would still trigger it. But I doubt that.
Joined: 4/30/2006
Posts: 480
Location: the secret cow level
if you managed to lure an enemy up to a green switch gate, and hit it with a super missile so that the explosion also hit the switch, could you open a door like that?
1. There is no way to get a enemy near the gate in that room
2. It would be completely irrelevant for triggering the switch, since it wouldn't change the given conditions at all
I tried for a while to skip this green gate but no success. The situation is odd; the super missile that explodes in hero's demonstrations actually goes below that series of blocks just barely. Depending on when you spark, the explosion can happen farther to the right (in mid-air), which makes me think that it's actually hitting something border related on the right, and not something above it.
It sure does *look* like it should work though. Hopefully it will somehow!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Maybe some code disassembly would help? If the precise conditions for hitting the switch are calculated, then reversing the process should be calculable too.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Here is my current idea. The shinespark is not necessary to get the super missile to cross the gate. Crossing the gate doesn't matter though, because it will always be below the green button's hit box radius. What needs to happen is to find a way to make the super missile pass through the top 2 boxes and be on the same level as the green button. Now if you fire a super missile from the correct spot, and the screen is not fully scrolled to the left, a super missile will pass straight through both the boxes and the green button. Unfortunately, since the missile is off the screen it cannot register for a hit. However, a shinespark might be fast enough to scroll the screen over, after the super missile has passed the boxes but has not yet passed the green button.
