This is just boiling my brains. In non-assisted speedrunning you only kept beating my times. But what do you know, now you're beating my, moozooh's, saturn's, and god knows how many other players' times. You're something special CPadolf, I'm amazed.
I've only tied in frames with JXQ in the first room in Ceres hahaha. I did it like 2 am and was too tired to go on, maybe today I'll hopefully get the whole Ceres done if I try enough. :) This is fun.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
This is just boiling my brains. In non-assisted speedrunning you only kept beating my times. But what do you know, now you're beating my, moozooh's, saturn's, and god knows how many other players' times. You're something special CPadolf, I'm amazed.
He's indeed something special considering how well he does in such a early SM-TASing stage.
This is a very ventured statement though.
I didn't show my work so far, so a comparison concerning me can't be done. And since I got some unnecessary troubles with a few people because of saying facts about my run in the past, I think I should better keep them to myself this time.
I actually compared to your unfinished RBO-run, but so many tricks have been found after you started that run I think that's the main reason.
Haha I can't even get the same frame counts in Ceres with JXQ, I'm already losing a frame at the third room. I think I'll just still go with it, as my first frame advance using TAS I don't think I even need to tie up with JXQ. He's godlike.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Super Metroid is unfair to TASers in the way that the very first segment is one of the most difficult. Tonski, evilchen, anyone else, if Ceres is giving you a lot of trouble, you might be able to better practice TASing skills at other parts of the game, then return there later with more experience.
Green Brinstar is where I start really having fun. Maybe it's the music. :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Thanks for the tip, but I'll just do this TAS this way. I don't really at this point care if I lose a whole minute or so to you other guys' runs, I'll make this one my run. :) I'll pretty much try to get the same frame counts but if I lose like 1-5 frames at some rooms especially in complex ones I don't mind/care now.
Green Brinstar music has always been my favorite one from the whole game. The second is probably the victorious music at gunship. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
hehe yeah jxq i allready noticed that but tied your ceres allready with much help of moozooh(explanations and stuff)
well not its time for the real thing
and btw i have a new super metroid music video ready i just need to test how to encode it.. :/!
I actually compared to your unfinished RBO-run, but so many tricks have been found after you started that run I think that's the main reason.
I see. In that case you are right of course. RBO is a almost 2 year old run by now and my first ever SM-TASing attempt. I actually meant the comparison to my later any% run though, which was much more superior to RBO, especially at the first parts of the run. It for example gets a Ceres escape time of 49'15 (compared to the for now best known 49'01) which I'm still waiting to be matched.
And yeah, Brinstar is the first part that starts to make fun to TAS. It's:
1. much easier to handle compared to Crateria
2. has a much better graphical atmosphere
3. much better music
It's not a surprise that every TASer enjoyes this part of a run. :-)
To be honest you don't really hear the music when playing with frame advance. :-P What I like more is doing a really really good part from landing until green Brinstar, it's nice when your fingers get to rest as that elevator goes down and you hear the music. (in skill-based speedrunning)
And are you really serious? 49'15?? Is that because of the emulator changes or have you really improved JXQ's frame counts? Me want to see. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
And are you really serious? 49'15?? Is that because of the emulator changes or have you really improved JXQ's frame counts? Me want to see. :)
Nope, it's not because of emu changes. It's a true gain which can be done on any emulator, since the only differences to the newer ones are the door transitions and loading parts which don't affect a run at all in-game wise. It's highly based on luck and max subpixel optimization though, for which I had to test alot of stuff in order to find a optimal line. A different emu may have different luck, so it would require to test everything from scratch in order to get the same result again.
Also keep in mind that I got this time in mid August 2006 already, way before JXQv2 was done. The key to get this time was probably that instead of comparing, I just fully concentrated on the actual attempt and searched for optimizations individually all the time without being influenced by any other run. As said before, this not only brings uniqueness into a run, but also increases the chances to find even more improvements, which as you see, I obviously did.
That run gets one year old soon. Maybe I will drop a small teaser of the Ceres part for you guys to see then, as a sign of celebration. :-)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Saturn wrote:
Tonski wrote:
This is just boiling my brains. In non-assisted speedrunning you only kept beating my times. But what do you know, now you're beating my, moozooh's, saturn's, and god knows how many other players' times. You're something special CPadolf, I'm amazed.
He's indeed something special considering how well he does in such a early SM-TASing stage.
He saved 1 frame in one spot, likely because Moozooh overlooked something; it happens all the time. I say wait for consistency (which may very well happen, in which case kudos) before you start shitting your pants with this whole "this new guy is teh shiz".
Nope, it's not because of emu changes. It's a true gain which can be done on any emulator, since the only differences to the newer ones are the door transitions and loading parts which don't affect a run at all in-game wise.
That run gets one year old soon. Maybe I will drop a small teaser of the Ceres part for you guys to see then, as a sign of celebration. :-)
Yeah Ceres teaser!!
And one thing that I have to say now: Cpadolf, I told you 49'15 was possible! :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
He saved 1 frame in one spot, likely because Moozooh overlooked something; it happens all the time. I say wait for consistency (which may very well happen, in which case kudos) before you start shitting your pants with this whole "this new guy is teh shiz".
Lol, shitting in pants as a relevance to a surprise about a (so far) excellent TAS performance? New to me. ;-)
And Cpadolf is actually a well known member of m2k2. It's just his TASing that is new. Of course it's a bit early to make conclusions yet, but doing so well as a newbie on one of the hardest games, and even improving a tricky (thats probably the reason moozooh overlooked it, since it usually doesn't happen when working in moozooh-style) room, is already something special enough to be surprised to, at least when you know the difficulty of SM-TASing in general.
And one thing that I have to say now: Cpadolf, I told you 49'15 was possible! :)
Yea lol shame on me :p the thing is I would have belived a 49:03 or 05 or something but 49:15 is a ~ 8-9 frame improvement which I honestly did not think was possible. I guess it requires waiting frames for luck manipulation already in the opening cut scene doesn't it Saturn? Probably for the second to last room...
comicalflop wrote:
He saved 1 frame in one spot, likely because Moozooh overlooked something; it happens all the time. I say wait for consistency (which may very well happen, in which case kudos) before you start shitting your pants with this whole "this new guy is teh shiz".
You are absolutely right, without consistency improvements like this prove nothing. The improvement itself was found simply because I though that maybe I could do that part a little different without loosing a frame and what do you know, I gained one.
Anyone who thinks I should try to get this published if I get 00:23 (unlikely but possible)
Of course you will get a 0:23 with the optimization level you got going on. How couldn't you?
I knew about this whole 49'15 a long time ago, I just didn't mention it to you earlier I think. :-P This site is full of godlike TASers.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I guess it requires waiting frames for luck manipulation already in the opening cut scene doesn't it Saturn?
Yeah, some here, some there. I'm still not sure if my line is the shortest in realtime frame delay, but I didn't bother too much, since my goal is in-game time anyway.
And of course you should submit it if you get 0:23. Even a 0:24 would be worth the submission, since it would be a new record as well.
Tonski wrote:
I knew about this whole 49'15 a long time ago, I just didn't mention it to you earlier I think. :-P
Where did you knew about it? Anybody else did it as well already?
You said yourself you got the time on August 2006 already, I remember seeing posts telling about it somewhere and hearing that this time had been done. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
And of course you should submit it if you get 0:23. Even a 0:24 would be worth the submission, since it would be a new record as well.
Though by the time I would submit Heros run will most likely be out already.
I'm now done till bombs and have not encountered any problems yet, fortunately I did not lose a frame in the bomb room. Also I'm trying to add entertainment by shooting as much stuff as I can.
EDIT: Also I've been playing around with the torizo escape a lot and have not been able to do the faster way heor did, so I thought maybe someone could explain it further if it's not to much trouble.
Tonski:
I see. Was probably a stupid question, since its very unlikely somebody would be able to get this time yet. I was just confused at first.
Cpadolf wrote:
Also I've been playing around with the torizo escape a lot and have not been able to do the faster way heor did, so I thought maybe someone could explain it further if it's not to much trouble.
Same here. I think moozooh made a joke.
There is no way to gain time by landing on the platform with the door. It's actually much slower than the immediate jump to the main ground.
Yupp, my best try was 1 frame slower then what moozooh did in his WIP, in that try I was actually on the platform during the door transition in a croutching position.
I really can't figure out how it would be possibe since 1, AFAIK there is no way of changing your subpixel position before the jump to the door, any change at all from the optimal makes you stuck. 2, I have tried every possible y position when the transition starts, from 144.65535 = on the platform in a croutching position to 136 in a spinjump position and no one seem to be able to make me possibly land earlier.
I'm not saying that it's impossible but the fact that also Saturn was unable to do this makes me suspicious.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Well, it was no joke.
I did in fact improve the door jump by 5 frames. Though I forget the exact line of input, it requires that the A button be released sometime during the middle of the jump. I will edit this later if you can't figure it out, and I will post the exact key presses.
Because I am nice guy and I don't like keeping secrets for my own benefit, here you go. I just quickly modified moozooh's movie to add in my door improvement.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1070752612/torizo_skip_ntsc.smv
Well, it was no joke.
I did in fact improve the door jump by 5 frames. Though I forget the exact line of input, it requires that the A button be released sometime during the middle of the jump. I will edit this later if you can't figure it out, and I will post the exact key presses.
Because I am nice guy and I don't like keeping secrets for my own benefit, here you go. I just quickly modified moozooh's movie to add in my door improvement.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1070752612/torizo_skip_ntsc.smv
Hmm, very weird. I tried to release the jump button on all possible frames to get lower height, but doing so the door always cancelled my spinjump animation even though the escape worked out. The actual key to get it done is to release the direction button. Apparently it allows to trigger the transition even one frame earlier than usual, which is the only way that allows maintaining the spinjump for a faster turn around in the next room.
Very nice discovery hero, and I admit, this is probably one of the last small tricks I didn't know yet. Thank you very much for posting.
Indeed excellent, I overlooked the exact same thing as Saturn AI I tried to release jump at every possible frame but never released the direction button.
Very nice (=
EDIT: Any progress update on your run Hero?
Ok, I tested some sloppy Super Metroid TASing on Snes9x v1.51 by now, and I experienced the same desync problems hero stated before. The savestates get to about 80% incompatible, and if one works, there are still 50% chances that the run would desync when recording from it. I guess it's because the savestates don't give 100% the same conditions a playback from beginning would, probably because of all this new emulation changes that delay door transitions and loading scenes.
So basicly you are forced to playback the run from the very beginning after every room you passed (or better after a door transition happened), if you want to ensure a 100% desyncless movie. This can cost alot of time and frustration, and the more you progress in the run, the more frustrating it gets to playback it, since the movie gets longer and longer with the progress.
So herewith I just want to warn you all about SM-TASing on Snes9x v1.51.
The benefits of it are of course nice, but except of somewhat superior sound there is really nothing else left. In the later AVI you almost won't notice and graphical differences anyway, and the slight loading differences aren't that bad at all, since all the game physics including the in-game timer stay 100% the same anyway. Even sound channel support is already available in Snes9x v1.43 (thanks to Upthorn, who really made a name for himself after this nice contribution).
In my opinion the slight benefits definitely aren't worth the large additional work and frustration, so I highly recommend to not use Snes9x v1.51 for SM-TASing as long as the movie isn't really short. At least not if you don't want to kill yourself with it. After a small talk with hero, he seems to agree with that as well by now.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Cpadolf:
Not considering the desync issues, the run is going very well actually. I have invented some seriously overlooked new strategies which would be useful in any run (100%,RBO,LOW%). All I can say is that the differences should be very noticeable, and the level of optimization is higher than my last run. Right now I am about to enter kraid's lair, which means I am almost 50% of the way done with the run.
But when the desync issues are taken into account, it becomes exponentially longer to proceed after completing a room. The entire run must be played back from frame 1 to ensure that no desyncs have happened after entering any single doorway.
