Arc
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Has this thread been mentioned? Although they express that they want to keep things secret from us 'cheaters,' they hint at some things about Zelda (of course not expecting us to see it ;p.) fixed
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Michael Fried wrote:
Do you know yet which route you're going to use? Here's the one I recommend: First Sword Level 3, raft Up+A Gambling game a few times, making sure to win 50 rupees each time Blue Candle Level 4, ladder Bait Heart Container from tree Level 1, bow Arrows Level 2 Heart Container from rock White sword Level 5, whistle Whistle to level 2 Level 8 (don't get the magic key, this was a mistake in my video, which also caused me too choose a much longer route because I wanted to get it early) Whistle to level 3 Level 7 Magical Sword Level 6 Whistle to level 1 Level 9, silver arrows Another mistake in my video was that I didn't use bombs often enough in fights, which made my fights slower, so make sure you use some bombs in your fights, especially in the first few levels where you have the first sword. Also keep in mind that there are many places where you can use Up+A inside the levels, such as after getting the bow in level 1, the raft in level 3, or the whistle in level 5. There are also times that you might not even think of where Up+A saves time, such as after getting the first sword or after getting the key from the stalfos one screen right of the start of level 1. Also don't forget about the key glitch in level 1, which takes less time than many other keys (and also prevents anyone from trying to submit the video to Twin Galaxies since they banned that glitch). If you have any questions about how I did something in my video, feel free to ask because many things require very precise timing and it could be hard to tell what I did. One example is how I reentered level 1 instantly instead of moving half a link-length down and then back up. The way I did this is when Link was all the way out, I quickly tapped right and then pressed up, and this somehow let me reenter without having to go down at all. Also, if you ever want me to watch what you did so far to see if I have any suggestions for improvement, feel free to send me the fmv.
Ive been staring at the overworld map and making several different routes all night. You definitely have the right idea about the start off: First Sword Level 3, raft Up+A Gambling game a few times, making sure to win 50 rupees each time Blue Candle Level 4, ladder Bait Heart Container from tree Level 1, bow But after level 1 is where all the different paths open up. You can go the level 6 route, but level 6 will be very slow with a wooden sword. I was also thinking of getting the bracelet, Up+A right away, south shore Heart Container, Level 2, but getting the bracelet is actually slower path to get back at the Magical sword and lvl 6. It all keeps coming down to the question "Lvl3 Sword Early, or Lvl3 Sword Later". Your route looks like it might be the fastest for "Lvl3 Sword Later". Last night I came up with the potentially fastest route for "Lvl3 Sword Early". After Lvl 1: 1.Up+A 2.Straight right for Heart Container 3.Right along the coast for Heart Container(east shore-two bridges) 4.Buy Arrow 5.Go through the forest to Lvl 2 6.Heart Container at rock 7.White Sword maybe(depends how fast lvl5 can be done with wooden sword and bombs) 8.Lvl 5 9.Whistle to Lvl 1 10.Magic Sword 11.Lvl 6 12.Whistle to 3 13.Lvl 7 14.Whistle to 2 15.Lvl 8 16.Whistle to 1 17.Lvl 9 With this route, you will have the Magical Sword for use on Level 6,7,8 and 9, of course only if the "Magical Sword Early" is faster. It just takes up a few seconds walking along the coast for the other heart container though, but the arrow and the other heart container are on the way. Also, Walking to Lvl 6 from Lvl 1 is actually faster than getting the bracelet, Up+A, Tunnel, Lvl 6. Ive read the Twin Galaxies thread about the Zelda run, and they stress the use of the Whistle. Dunno if they mean "use it more", "use it more effectively" or "use it in a different way". Whistle is used 4 times in my route and Up+A is used twice. Wish Up+A could be abused more. Im gonna spend a few more hours planning before I get started. Let me know what you guys think of this route. Hopefully, the route will be finalized by the time I'm done Level 1.
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Arc wrote:
Has this thread been mentioned? Although they express that they want to keep things secret from us 'cheaters,' they hint at some things about Zelda (of course not expecting us to see it ;p.) fixed
Hmm, ignorant people. If they read the f.a.q they would know that it is no secret that save states have been used. No one has said that there are no rerecordings afaik.
Arc
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No one has said that there are no rerecordings
MKM is referring to my definition:
Speed Run: Videos of amazing achievements by humans on a continous, real-time attempt ('run' implies continuity/flow.) No saves states, etc. are used.
Evidently he stopped reading at that point, unable to read the definition of Time Attack on the next line, and assumed that I was calling the Zelda Time Attack a real Speed Run. Just another one of the uninformed 'those are faked/hoaxed/cheated' people.
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I think the biggest problem is that people fail to differentiate between the two terms. Some say that it "sounds the same to me."
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Maybe I'm a little be skeptical, and maybe I should spend more than a few minutes thinking about it, but your route: 34h1hh2h56789 doesn't look good to me. I get what you're saying. You think if you can get the magical sword immediately, you'll save time. I don't think you've seen the video that's 30 seconds faster than Michael's. In it, he goes 34hhhh2h165879. He picks up every heart piece on the overworld. The walking time to get the three hearts on the east coast is about a minute. I do not feel that the shorter fighting time makes up for all that walking. Your route, too, seems to do a lot of walking just to get the magical sword faster. I think Michael's suggestion would be the best one to go with, but still we're both unsure. It's such a complicated game. I'm glad to see you're thinking. You're getting the right idea. We should all plan and work together in this forum before starting the video.
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Do we have the dungeons themselves optimised? That is, are there pretty much enough keys on the main path to everything no matter the order? Has someone timed just the dungeons, with each of the swords? If the route through the dungeons is optimal, we should be able to make those constant-time. Once you know how long each dungeon takes with each sword, you know when it's best to upgrade (when the cost of upgrading is less than the cost of not upgrading). I think the video should use IT'S A SECRET TO EVERYBODY rather than gambling, even though gambling would probably save time.. but that's just me trying to find an optimal route for actually playing the game ^_^;;;
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Ok, you're probably right. Touching any of the Heart containers on the east coast wastes a significant amount of time and its not worth getting the Magical Sword that early. You guys have put a lot more time into this than I have, its only now that I see how difficult it is. Michael's route is definitely good, but the only thing I dont like is that it only uses the Magical Sword for L6, when it would be a lot more useful for other levels like L8 which is darknut infested. Since getting any of the east coast heart containers wastes too much time, I came up with this route: 1.L3 2.Up+A 3.Gamble 4.Candle 5.L4 6.Meat 7.Tree Heart Container 8.L1 9.Up+A 10.South Heart Container 11.L2 12.Rock Heart Container 13.White Sword 14.L5 15.Whistle to L3 16.Arrows 17.L7 18.Magical Sword 19.L6 20.Whistle to L2 21.L8 22.Whistle to L1 23.L9 This route takes only 1 screen longer than Michael's route, but you will have the Magical Sword for use in both L6 and L8(where its more useful) instead of just L6. In my opinion, this looks like a definite time saver, wouldn't you say?
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Sleepz wrote:
Ive read the Twin Galaxies thread about the Zelda run, and they stress the use of the Whistle. Dunno if they mean "use it more", "use it more effectively" or "use it in a different way". Whistle is used 4 times in my route and Up+A is used twice. Wish Up+A could be abused more.
The only flaw with the whistle that I saw in the run on this site was the player went to multiple screen before they arrived at their destination. Just play the flute multiple times before the tornado picks you up and you'll travel past that many palaces.
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Boco, yes the levels themselves are optimized. There are places (if I remember correctly) where two equidistant paths would take you to the same room. (Say, going up then right, or going right then up.) In those cases, I think accounting for enemy lag may be the faster way. For example, in Level 4, Michael went into a room with one of those blue four-headed things, then bombed right. In the Japanese guy's video, he goes to the map room, and bombs up. I think the latter may be faster just because it doesn't have to load that guy and the fireballs. The Level 4 map on GameFAQs is incomplete, by the way. As for the best way to play the game in real life... I'd say it was that Japanese guy's route. It does the easy levels, and gets the magical sword for the hard ones. I have a hunch that this is the route TSA used, though he won't admit it. Playing the blue darknut rooms with a weaker sword is too hard for a human player to do perfectly, but yet we're creating routes that'll do it, because we have godlike emulator powers. Another thing about what could be done in real life.... There's this one rooms where hands crawl out of the wall. Since Michael was able to see where they were going to come from, he was able to kill them before they were even visible. This isn't really fair at all, because a human would never be able to do this, no matter how godlike his reflexes. The secrets to everybody are faster because you can get 100 rupees and only have to wait for the guy's text to load once. Whereas the gambling room you can only get 50, so you'll have to wait twice. Bladegash, I never really mastered the whistle myself. I'm not sure if what you explained works or not. There's a whole system to working the whistle, and I think it includes the direction you're facing, which Triforce pieces you have, and things like that. Sleepz, I don't think that would be faster either. First of all, I have my doubts about even getting the white sword for level 5. This is how picky and stupid I am. Note, though, that I can't validate this, but I think just the detour (walk to the sword place, go in and wait for the guy's text to load, and then walk back) is slower than just fighting the guy's with the first sword. Having said that, I'm not even sure getting any sword upgrade would be faster, but I'm probably wrong. The only place where I could see a better sword would make save a drastic amount of time is Level 9, because that level has more fighting in it that most of the entire game. So if we do want to get the sword upgrades, we want to do them as seemlessly as possible. Now here's where I'm gonna sound like a jerk. 3.Gamble 4.Candle 5.L4 6.Meat To get the candle you need 60 rupees. That means if you get two 5-rupees in Level 3, you only need to gamble once to get it. The meat is 100. Either you'll need to gamble two more times, or you could hold out. When you're getting the south heart container, you could go up, burn a bush, and get a 100 secret to everybody. Then, you could get the meat on your way to level 8 (by walking down from level 2 and burning a bush.) Since I don't expect you to get two 5-rupees in Level 3, and since you also need another 80 rupees for the arrows, gambling a few more times would be alright, but just buy the meat later. 11.L2 12.Rock Heart Container 13.White Sword 14.L5 If you're going to go left to get the heart container, you're gonna have to go right again. I'm sure you knew that, but just pointing it out. Also, to get the White Sword before level 5, you'll have to walk there and back. As I've mentioned, I'm not too fond of getting the white sword, but if you want to, you could get it after doing level 5, that way you could whistle wherever you want after getting it, and you can skip the walk back from the sword to level 5. Granted, you won't have it for the darknuts, but blah blah blah. The whole route seems very good to me, though. I was impressed. The only part of it I *really* had a problem with was: 15.Whistle to L3 16.Arrows 17.L7 Where are you gonna get the arrows by level 3? All the way up in the screen west of Level 4? And then back to 7? And this route is only 1 longer than Michael's? Are you sure? I didn't count screens, but if it is, um, go for it, I guess, but it seems too long for me.
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Ramzi wrote:
Boco, yes the levels themselves are optimized. There are places (if I remember correctly) where two equidistant paths would take you to the same room. (Say, going up then right, or going right then up.) In those cases, I think accounting for enemy lag may be the faster way. For example, in Level 4, Michael went into a room with one of those blue four-headed things, then bombed right. In the Japanese guy's video, he goes to the map room, and bombs up. I think the latter may be faster just because it doesn't have to load that guy and the fireballs.
So time both routes. It should be easy to get there, and go through those rooms at optimal speed, so record both variations and see which one is longer for those two rooms (and all other locations like this). See, you say the dungeons are optimised, but then you don't have times for these things :-þ
Ramzi wrote:
The secrets to everybody are faster because you can get 100 rupees and only have to wait for the guy's text to load once. Whereas the gambling room you can only get 50, so you'll have to wait twice.
Okay, then we need to redefine the overworld route to get the Secrets to Everybody instead of gambling.
Ramzi wrote:
I have my doubts about even getting the white sword for level 5. This is how picky and stupid I am. Note, though, that I can't validate this, but I think just the detour (walk to the sword place, go in and wait for the guy's text to load, and then walk back) is slower than just fighting the guy's with the first sword. [...] Having said that, I'm not even sure getting any sword upgrade would be faster, but I'm probably wrong. The only place where I could see a better sword would make save a drastic amount of time is Level 9, because that level has more fighting in it that most of the entire game. So if we do want to get the sword upgrades, we want to do them as seemlessly as possible. [...] 11.L2 12.Rock Heart Container 13.White Sword 14.L5 If you're going to go left to get the heart container, you're gonna have to go right again. I'm sure you knew that, but just pointing it out. Also, to get the White Sword before level 5, you'll have to walk there and back. As I've mentioned, I'm not too fond of getting the white sword, but if you want to, you could get it after doing level 5, that way you could whistle wherever you want after getting it, and you can skip the walk back from the sword to level 5. Granted, you won't have it for the darknuts, but blah blah blah.
Like I said above.. time each dungeon with each sword using the optimal path, and make note of alternative optimal paths (where it's faster to go this way with this sword, but with a stronger sword it's faster to go that way.. are there any of these?). And then figure out how long it should take to get each sword upgrade from each point along the route, factoring in the overworld heart containers and what levels should be completed by then. You should then know when it's most efficient to upgrade, if ever. You may not like my method of optimisation, but that's your loss :-þ You could always just fight a room of darknuts, and use that as the time for each darknut room, or whatever, if you didn't want to basically time the whole game multiple times over.. just get an idea of how much time you'd save by getting / not getting a sword.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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I hear what you're saying. And I've thought about this before. I could just do all 672 legal routes and find which one is fastest. Or, I could time every level with every sword, and then time the walking from every place to every other place, and then write a computer program that'll compute the times for every route and give me the fastest. You see what I'm saying, here? That's a lot more work than I'd like to do. I'm trying to find the fastest route through thinking and logic, but you know what? It seems that all this thinking is probably taking more time than just doing all of that work. Bah, oh well. So you know, it's impossible to do levels 3 and 4 with the magical sword. So other than those two, feel free to do every level with each sword, and post the timings. One reason why there hasn't been much discussion about the level subtlties is because the difference they make is so small, unlike the overworld routes, which are large. Once we can figure out the best route, then we'll worry about the small stuff. But we are not forgetting them. For example, we have the minimum amount of rooms that need to be entered for all of the levels. This however, is not the fastest way to go. There is an on-path key in the room before the level 8 boss. Getting this key is slower than getting an off-path key in level 1. >> Okay, then we need to redefine the overworld route to get the >> Secrets to Everybody instead of gambling. If you read my post carefully, I did. The problem is, most of the secrets to everybody are like, 10 or 30 rupees. The time-saving ones are the 100 rupee ones, and they're aren't so many of them, or so many of them on the path, anyway. I think I balanced the gambling and the secrets to everybody in the most efficient way possible, at least for his route, anyway.
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You can also do it per-case. Like, what you said about not knowing whether it takes longer to get White then beat 5 versus beat 5 without White versus beat 5, THEN get White.. time just that. Like I said, if you don't want to do a whole dungeon, time how long it takes to clear a room of Darknuts with each sword, then use that information.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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This is starting to sound like a mathematical problem.
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Bisqwit wrote:
This is starting to sound like a mathematical problem.
It is totally a math problem! I might just actually break down and write a solution program in Scheme or something. I mean, you had that program that knew the rules for what orders are legal.. you just need to map those places onto the real 8x16 map and have it count distance between each place in screens, also factoring in where the Secrets to Everybody are and the shops that sell candle, meat, and arrows. Once you know how much time the upgraded swords save (without even bothering to figure out how long it takes to get them) you can add that in, too, to see if the cost of getting the overworld hearts and the swords is justified.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Travelling salesman problem? Or similar.
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Michael took out the two blue darknut rooms in Level 8 in 7 and 8 seconds with the second sword, and the Japanese guy did them in 5 and 6 seconds with the magical sword. With those numbers, I liberally estimated the rooms to take 12 seconds with the first sword. There are 4 blue darknut rooms total. The most time that could be saved is 28 seconds. ((12 - 5) * 4). The blue darknuts are really where most of the fighting is at. Then there are level bosses. I think doing the game (not counting level 9) with the magical sword sword may be around 45 or 50 seconds faster than the wooden one. Michael told me he timed it at 11 seconds to enter the first room to get the wooden sword and leave. If it's 11 seconds for the heart pieces, and you get 3, that's 33 seconds. Plus the walking time. It probably breaks even. But remember that that is magical sword vs. wooden sword for the whole game. For wooden sword vs. white sword for level 5, I think wooden sword wins. There are two rooms of blue darknuts, and say each room has four seconds saved by using the white sword. 8 seconds? I'm being very lenient. And the level boss. The level is 10 seconds faster with the white sword. That doesn't even make up for the time getting the white sword in the first place. The fighting in the Japanese guy's video was sub-par, so I was extra lenient to the cause of getting the white sword. It just seems like it'll be longer. The same kind of reasoning has to be applied to the rest of the game, or we could just time everything. This really is a huge math problem. I doubt a perfect run of this game will ever be made, unlike Mario 1. Until some formula is devised to defeat the bad guys as quickly as possible, someone will always be able to shave off a few seconds. But I'm not even gonna worry about that. I'm just focusing on the route.
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The full list of rules is.. 1 before 6 3 before 4 4 before 5 4 before 6 4 before 7 5 before 7 9 last arrows before 6 meat before 7 candle before 8 ..plus needed rupees before purchases Right? So you have a program that finds all possible paths, keeping in mind these rules, where to buy stuff / costs for buying, and where the Secrets to Everybody are.. ..then you have a program that uses a table of travel times between each place to find the time before the Flute.. ..then you have a program that figures out which Triforce pieces you have and finds the times after the Flute. Not nearly as complex as the TSP.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Maybe you have a glorified view of my program. Basically, there were 8 factorial (over 40,000) combinations of levels. One of those was 87654321. Now obviously we know that this cannot be done in the game, since you need to beat 3 before 4, and 4 before 5, etc. All my program does finds the position of the numbers, and if it doesn't follow the rule, it deletes the combination. That's how I was left with 672 combinations. As for the program you're describing, I don't have it. It could be coded, yes, but it's probably more complicated than you think. First of all, there's the problem of gathering the data. Manually we have to find the times for completing the levels, and for walking place to place. Once we have all of the times, then we could write a program. The program, in essence, would work the same way our minds do to solve the problem. It'll see if you have the whistle, and then use that time rather than the walking time, etc etc. The trouble comes when you have multiple places to do the same thing. For example, you could burn the bush by level 2 for the meat on the way to level 2, or, on the way to level 8 from level 2. Obviously it's the latter, not only geometrically, but also because of how much money we'd have at the time. If you're not visualizing it yet... There was only 8 factorial combinations of possible level orders. Imagine how many more combos there are for getting the money, the heart pieces, the swords, and the items. Yes, a program could be written that'll test EVERY combination and just report back with the shortest time, but we'd need to know the data of everything, and even then the program would still be a pain to write. With logic we're able to eliminate an amazing amount of the combinations. For example, if you need to go to a store by Level X, you know that there is store A,B, and C near that level, and you could stop at the one that's most on-path to the next place you're going. It's unncessary to even consider store X,Y, and Z on the other side of the overworld because you already know that that long of a detour would waste time. Now imagine that Level X has store A,B,C and so does Level Y, and Level Z. If going to store B from level X is faster than be or C, and going to store A is faster from level Y, and store C is faster from level Z, and you could go to the store at any of these times, which route is faster? Level X --> store B --> next location Level Y --> store A --> next location Level Z --> Store C --> next location Let me make up numbers now. Level X --> store B --> next location (4 screens) Level Y --> store A --> next location (2 screens) Level Z --> Store C --> next location (1 screen) Now we know the time to go to the store is after Level Z. The program would have to every store combination for every level. And in a game as large as Zelda, that would be a bitch and a half to code. Here's why. h is for heart Level X --> store B --> h --> next (7 screens) Level Y --> store A --> h --> next (9 screens) Level Z --> Store C --> h --> next (8 screens) Now all of a sudden the Level X route is faster. I would be for writing the program is the game were larger than it is. If the same game were 100 levels and the overworld was 100 times the size, writing a program would be faster than thinking about it logically. However, you'd still have to come up with all of the rule sets and gather all of the data yourself. I don't think I'm a good enough programmer to do this one. I could barely visualize how to code it. It'll be loops inside of loops inside of loops inside of loops. Gah. We're practically there, already, though. I'm pretty damned certain you have to go 341. There aren't so many combinations after that. The two routes posted before are probably the best two. And if the sword upgrades is fastest, Michael's route is probably the way to go. I think whether or not to get the swords is the last major problem to solve. After someone comes up with that answer, we're set, probably. I say probably because these routes were created by humans, and not by a program that tried every combination. There very well may be a factor or a route we missed, or didn't consider. I doubt it, though, but it is possible. For example, until recently I didn't even consider getting the power bracelet for warping. Then when I did, I found a route geometrically shorter than Michael's. At the time, though, I was damned certain Michael's was the shortest geometrically. You could imagine my surprise when I found my route, but I wouldn't be surprised if any even faster route is found. I'm doubtful it could happen, but it may. I talk too much. I'm glad though that we have more people looking at this and thinking about it though. Maybe you guys will see something we missed. Once this vid is created, it will be amazing though, particularly for us. Folks who don't know the game as well, and don't know how much planning went into this, won't find it as amazing as we would.
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So...is anyone recording at this point? Or is this all theoretical?
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All theoretical. No one's started recording, yet, I don't think.
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Ramzi wrote:
11.L2 12.Rock Heart Container 13.White Sword 14.L5 If you're going to go left to get the heart container, you're gonna have to go right again. I'm sure you knew that, but just pointing it out. Also, to get the White Sword before level 5, you'll have to walk there and back. As I've mentioned, I'm not too fond of getting the white sword, but if you want to, you could get it after doing level 5, that way you could whistle wherever you want after getting it, and you can skip the walk back from the sword to level 5. Granted, you won't have it for the darknuts, but blah blah blah. .
So you believe I should do 5 without getting the white sword? It might be faster. Most of the points about fighting that have been brought up deal with only the level of sword you have. My fights will be faster for the harder rooms because I will be using more bombs. How much faster will a blue darknut room be cleared with wooden sword assuming 2 bombs will be used in the fight.
Ramzi wrote:
The whole route seems very good to me, though. I was impressed. The only part of it I *really* had a problem with was: 15.Whistle to L3 16.Arrows 17.L7 Where are you gonna get the arrows by level 3? All the way up in the screen west of Level 4? And then back to 7? And this route is only 1 longer than Michael's? Are you sure? I didn't count screens, but if it is, um, go for it, I guess, but it seems too long for me.
Yes: Michael's Route - From Lvl1>Arrows>Lvl2= 2 screen detour Sleepz Route - From Lvl3>Arrows>Lvl7= 3 screen detour However, I forgot to mention the extra heart container on route to lvl2. So, by getting the 1H and the extra screen for arrows, would the time wasted be worth it for Magical Sword in Lvl 8? 8 has 2 rooms of blue darknuts and 4 headed Gleeok as the boss. Might not be a major time saver, but a timer saver no less. But Im sure we are all looking for the major time saver on the overworld map. Ill probably start recording lvl3 for now, since its for sure.
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Don't forget to enter your name very fast. Here's what I did. I put start and select on autofire, then I held down start, then I pressed A to enter my name as A, and then I held down start and select. Anyway, I'll take a few minutes and type up a new route using the things that you came up with. By the way, the reason I didn't go into the map room in level 4 was because I didn't want to wait for the room to get dark and then for it to light up in the next room. Edit: Or maybe more than a few minutes, I'm having trouble coming up with a good route.
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I give up on coming up with the best route, so I'm going to very accurately time certain things like whistle blowing, Up+A, walking across the screen, and caves, and maybe this will make it easier to mathematically calculate the fastest route. If anyone has any more ideas for what I should time, let me know. Edit: Up+A takes exactly 3.75 seconds from pressing start to getting control of Link. Edit 2: Whistle blowing takes exactly 7.95 seconds from pressing B to getting control of Link. Edit 3: The first sword takes exactly 10.95 seconds from stepping onto the black square to getting control of Link. Edit 4: Heart containers take exactly 10.1 seconds to get (this doesn't include the time it takes for bombing or burning). Edit 5: The gambling game (in a cave) takes exactly 8.05 seconds (assuming the middle rupee is chosen). Edit 6: Money caves (in a stairway) take exactly 5.65 seconds. Edit 7: Walking across the screen horizontally takes exactly 4.8 seconds (including walking time and scrolling time). Edit 8: Walking across the screen vertically takes exactly 3.45 seconds (including walking time and scrolling time). Edit 9: Power bracelet warps take exactly 4.65 seconds (assuming the middle stairway is chosen).
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Bah! Alright, I'm like, working on the fifth way to explain this. Every way I try it becomes too complicated. Basically, there is a time saved by doing level 5 and level 8 with the white sword. Say these times are the same, because both have two blue darknut rooms. Call the time saved in level 5 X, and since it's the same time in level 8, also X, maybe the total time saved 2X. Call the time to walk to the sword, wait for the text time A. Call the time to walk from the sword back to level 5 time B. Note that A is greater than B, because A also includes the text. To make things easier, say that A is two-thirds, and B is one-third. The total time (three-thirds) is Y. If you get the sword before level 5, you need to ask, "Is A + B greater or less than 2X." If you get the white sword after level 5, you have to ask, "Is A greater or less than 1X." Note that the time saved is cut in half but the detour is not cut in half. 1Y : 2X .66Y : X Jesus, this is so confusing. What this means is, if level 5 and level 8 take the same amount of time, it is impractical to get the white sword after level 5, because you lose half of the possible saved time, but only lose a third of the detour time. So, if you do get the white sword, it would have to be before level 5. I didn't include level 7 in my previous mumbo jumbo, basically, though, you'd ask. "Does the time to walk to the sword, wait for the text, and walk back take more or less time than the time saved by doing levels 5, 7, and 8 with the white sword." This I do not know. Sometimes I feel like getting it would be faster, other times I don't. The best thing to do would be to time each way and find out. Regardless of what decision we come to for the white sword, we have to ask the same question for the magical sword. Does the magical sword save more time in levels 6 and 9 than the detour for it does? (Time saved in comparison to the white sword, if you got it, or the wooden sword, if you didn't.) If the answer to both of these is no, than you don't have to get the heart pieces, and you could take my geometrically shorter route. You only have to add time to get all of the hearts to the magical sword detour if you decide to get only it, or it and the white sword. If you're only gonna get the white sword, you have to add the times to get the hearts needed for the white sword to that detour. (Do you need to get any overworld hearts for the white sword?) Also, if you get the white sword, and not the magical sword, you can also add the time saved in levels 6 and 9 to your total time saved. *cries* this is sooo complicated. I think we may have to go Boco's way, and just test them all to see what's fastest.