The problems we were discussing here were:
1) the ambiguity of "concept demos" as a category (especially when it comes to voting: "I vote yes, but this should be published as a concept demo", etc.);
There was a problem related to that? I thought the voting was simply "should this movie be published or not?" Whether it's categorized as a TAS or a concept demo is up to the admins or whoever.
2) the necessity of publishing some of the runs in a separate category;
This is a problem? Why is it a problem? I don't think it's a question of "necessity" but a question of categorization: Instead of just having a big bunch of funny videos, we have several videos of different categories. It helps people to navigate and browse.
3) the arbitrary restriction on the number of the movies made for each game to prevent the movie list clutter — a problem that was successfully solved (at least ideologically) by Tub.
I didn't know there was such a limitation. If there is, then I agree: I don't understand why there should be such a limitation.
(I do understand a limitation on *starred* movies of the same game, and in fact I oppose having so many "super mario" starred movies, but that's a different issue.)
Tub wrote:
so, you'd eradicate the nice and entertaining AlttP-run in favour of the glitched 2-minute-wtf that's only interesting once, just because it's faster?
Uh? Is it really hard to understand what I write?
Let me spell it out for you: CATEGORY. Do you comprende what that word means? If not, try looking in a dictionary, it might help.
The 2-minute glitched run is clearly a different category of run for the AlttP game than the non-glitched run. They have different goals/limitations. Runs with different categories can perfectly coexist.
However, if someone makes a 1.9-minute glitched run which improves the 2-minute one, then - quite naturally - it should obsolete the 2-minutes one.
Hi Warp,
I didn't read your whole post. I would however be interested in hearing your thought process behind why you feel some movies with non-standard goals/limitations should be categorized under "regular runs" while others should be put in the "concept demo" category.
Trying to learn,
Fabian
It seems like this whole problem would be resolved (and probably would have never surfaced) if people would just vote whether they liked the movie or not, which is what the poll question asks, rather than voting based on current/past/future publications. For example, people voting no for weird reasons like "there's already a run of the same game and we don't need two/three/ten runs of this game," when they should be voting no only because they disliked the movie. Like in the recent FDS Super Mario Bros. thread.
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Little boy: mummy... is god a CONCEPT DEMO?
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Bisqwit wrote:
It is possible to read the judges' opinions in prior decisions in a variety of ways. In saying this, I imply no criticism of the judges, who in those cases were faced with the task of trying to define what may be indefinable. I have reached the conclusion, which I think is confirmed at least by negative implication in the judges' decisions since, that under the guidelines of this site qualifications in this area are limited to concept demos. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the TAS involved in this case is not that.
I would however be interested in hearing your thought process behind why you feel some movies with non-standard goals/limitations should be categorized under "regular runs" while others should be put in the "concept demo" category.
I don't think there's a "standard goal" other than to play the game optimally (which usually means playing it through as fast as possible). I wouldn't say that a subcategory like "complete the game as fast as possible but without abusing the warping glitch" is any less "standard". It's just a subcategory which exists for entertainment: Sometimes it is entertaining to put some rational limitation (eg. not using a warping glitch) which eg. forces the entire game to be played through (Rygar is a good example).
A concept demo is a video which doesn't conform to the main rules of TAS videos. For example, if a run does not start from reset, as required by the rules, but it is nevertheless published because it has great entertainment value, it is a concept demo, not a rule-obeying TAS.
The rules exist to forbid "cheating". Cheating in the context of TASing is to create a video which tries to lie to the viewer: The viewer thinks that it's a whole run through the game, done just by giving the emulator timed keypresses (in other words, it simulates the playing of a superhuman person with perfect abilities) and that's it, but if the video does something more than that, it is cheating. For example if the video uses gamegenie codes or such in order to affect how the game itself works, that's cheating. The requirement to start from reset also tries to forbid any kind of cheating which could happen if the video started from a savestate instead (because it would be difficult to know if the savestate actually did something to enhance the gaming, and thus the video seen by the viewer would not be a *complete* run through the game).
Sometimes these strict rules are loosened up a bit for certain videos which have great entertainment value. However, given that they are not pure TAS videos they are put under a completely different category: Concept demo. This tells to the viewer that he should not expect it to be a pure TAS as defined by the basic "anticheat" rules.
I have a good suggestion for this.
As warp was saying earlier, when a run has the same main goal as nother with the same game and is completed faster, it obsoletes the other run. Seems fair enough right?
The only problem with this is that there are some games that are beaten very quickly due to heavy glitches such as SMB by Phil, and the LOZ-2 glitch run in aout 3 minutes or so, and the ALTTP glitched run.
These runs can not be put into Concept demos for this matter because they do beat the game faster with the same main goal. The only problem is that it would be better for the comminuty as a whole if the original non-glitched runs stayed along beside them since it will satisfy the average user/gamer to see the non glitched version.
But, there are other movies like Bisqwit's SMB walk-athon. This is clearly a demo due to the fact of the game is played differently to show a "demo" way of beating it that is slower than the original. Say for instance someone did a megaman 6 run with walking only. That's a clear demo. Using a different character in a game that is slower to show a different way of beating a game should also be a Demo.
So, A demo in my mind can be:
- A slower movie using a different movement to beat the game.
- A slower movie using a different character to beat the game.
- A movie of a "hack" ROM
This is what i can pick up so far. Instead of asking others to tell you what it means, we as a community should all try to put together what would benefit the site.
The only problem with this is that there are some games that are beaten very quickly due to heavy glitches such as SMB by Phil, and the LOZ-2 glitch run in aout 3 minutes or so, and the ALTTP glitched run.
I don't see any problem in having both runs published at the same time, under different categories. The glitched run of alttp and the non-glitched one belong to different categories (because they have different goals) and thus can coexist. They don't obsolete each other.
(Perhaps the word "category" is a bit misleading here. In the above paragraph I'm talking about the categories given to TAS videos such as "uses no warps" etc. I'm not referring to "TAS vs. concept demo".)
But, there are other movies like Bisqwit's SMB walk-athon. This is clearly a demo due to the fact of the game is played differently to show a "demo" way of beating it that is slower than the original.
Personally I disagree with it being considered a concept demo. It is a completely valid and perfect TAS which uses a rational valid limitation for entertainment purposes (completely akin to "uses no warps" or "collects all items"). There's nothing in it which "breaks" the rules of a legit TAS, and thus I don't see any reason for it to be considered a concept demo.
So, A demo in my mind can be:
- A slower movie using a different movement to beat the game.
- A slower movie using a different character to beat the game.
I see absolutely no reason why those could not be considered regular TASes. They just have different goals than the "main" runs and could perfectly coexist with them, under different categories.
- A movie of a "hack" ROM
This would indeed be a concept demo because it would break one of the main rules of a TAS.
I heard someone say recently that he didn't want a certain movie to be in the concept demo section, since it felt like a downgrade. It has been suggested before that the concept demo area is the section "where movies are published that wouldn't be published under normal rules", or "aren't good enough to be published with the other movies". I think this section is called gruefood, and not concept demos. I also hear lots of people say "vote yes as a concept demo, otherwise no". I think it should just be decided if the movie is published or not, and then it should be obvious, by some rules, if it's a concept demo or not. It is also mentioned that a movie might be harder to locate in the concept demo section, since if you look for a particular movie, you will look at the console section, for that game. It seems, even though this thread is pretty old there is still no definition of what should be in it, and what shouldn't be, which I think adds to the feeling some about the concept demo section. If there is a clear definition of what is a concept demo, I think people might stop looking at the section as being downgrading. I will post here what I think is logical to what is in this section and what isn't. Here are three suggestions:
(1) A maximum of 2 movies of one game in the regular game section: 1 movie which completes the game as fast as possible (any%), and 1 movie which plays the entire game (no warps, or 100%). All other movies of that game go to the concept demo area. (Movie which show a completely different aspect of the game, like zelda second quest shouldn't be in the concept demo section).
(2) If a concept demo is available for a certain game, it might be good if the regular movie description linked to the concept demo/hack. This is for instance done for the SDW 100% run). It willl solve the fact that people won't be able to find these movies.
(3) A movie in the concept demo section must have clear goals, which are open for competition.
What should be in the concept demo section?
- Hacks. I guess this is the "/other" in the name of the section.
- Multiple game runs. Megaman quadrun is already in there, what is keeping the X1+X2 dual from also being added to the concept demo section?
- 2 player runs, if it's slower than the single player run in that same category. If the 2 player run is faster than the single player run in that category, the 2 player run should obsolete the single player run.
- Like point (1) already stated, all runs which aren't any% or full game run. Some examples:
* SMB no B run (slower than any% and not 100%)
* Contra pacifist run (slower than any% and not 100%)
* SMB2 peach only ( " " )
* Monopoly 4CPU
* Battle toads 2 player warples (slower than any% 1 player)
* Metroid no mini boss
* 1-item metroid
* 100% kills gradius 3 (don't know the movies well, but it are just the same levels, with 100% killed, so does not qualify as full game movie... the other movie already shows all levels).
* Minimalist super metroid
* Super Mario World small only
* Probably others
What should not be in the concept demo section?
- Movies that are either any% or full game run. There should be 1 full game run for each game, but it is not always the same... here are some examples:
* Super Metroid any% and 100% (all item collection is here full game run)
* Super Mario World 11 exit and 96 exit (all exits is here full game run)
* Super mario 3 with flute and fluteless (it was decided that the best full game run for this game was fluteless, and not all exit. This means an all exit run should not be made)
* Arkanoid warped and Arkanoid 3 ball powerup only (the warped version completes the game as fast as possible without restrictions, and the 3 ball powerup only was decided to be the best full game run of this game. Since this is the full game run, which shows all levels, it should not be in the concept demo section.)
- Movies which show a different part of the game (for instance with a password). Examples of this are:
* Rockin Kats channel X
* Zelda second quest
* Adventures of lolo 2 pro levels
- Movies which aren't in the regular section at all. A common objection for having your movie in the concept demo section is not being able to find it. Linking to it from the regular movies, like (2) is the solution, but for games that don't have such a regular movie this is not possible, so they should be in the regular section. Examples of this are:
* one track top gear (a full run would include this track though, so it would obsolete it)
* first track F-zero (a full run would include trhis track though, so it would obsolete it)
* wild warp Crystalis (also doesn't have a normal run. A normal run might obsolete it, I'm not sure... the warping method wasn't liked if I recall correctly. Either way, since there is no normal movie right now, it should be in the nes section. If a normal run doesn't obsolete this run, it should still be in the nes section, as the fastest run to complete the game)
- Others?
* Newgame+ chronotrigger (this is the hardest movie for me to judge. Since it's not slower than one of the regular movies, and all other movies in the concept demos are things that slow you down, this might not belong in the concept demo area. It can be considered any% run for an already upgraded character, but I'm not sure. I can be convinced by arguments that it should be in the concept demo section probably).
IMO concept demos are only games that somehow break the rules because they start from a savestate, use a cheat code/debug code, or employ an otherwise unorthodox TAS technique such as multi-game runs with the same input. Hacks could also fall into this category or be given a category all their own.
Concept demos are not legitimate TASes that just have different goals from the traditional "any%" or "100%." Examples of things that I would NOT consider to be concept demos are runs that have a different goals from "any%" or "100%" (such as SMW small only), 2-player runs (2 characters are controlled in the same game), pacifist runs, 100% kills, highest score, etc.
Allowing two runs from a set game ("any%" and "100%") in the regular game section seems like an arbitrary restriction and would cause lots of clutter in the Concept Demos section.
Allowing two runs from a set game ("any%" and "100%") in the regular game section seems like an arbitrary restriction and would cause lots of clutter in the Concept Demos section.
On the other hand, allowing arbitrary restrictions for runs causes lots of clutter in the regular game section.
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Personally I agree with thegreginator. IMO a legit TAS is a run of a game which starts from scratch, ie. from reset and completes the game as fast as possible, even if some rational limitation is imposed (eg. no warp glitches or having to collect all items), solely with timed keypresses.
Cluttering of the "regular game section" could be alleviated by other means. It's not like "TAS" and "concept demo" were the only possible dividing categories.
How about this division:
1) Pure TAS: Completes the game as fast as possible, no matter what the means, "any%".
2) Restricted TAS: Completes the game as fast as possible, but imposing a rational restriction for entertainment purposes (such as using no warps or collecting all items).
3) Concept demos. (Most usually runs which start from a savegame instead of reset.)
