Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
That is not much of an argument Bob. Playing on the J version is a sure fire way of getting about 50% no votes. It seems like I will get some no votes either way, because some uneducated people want to compare two completely different games.
Given the level of discussion that this decision has fostered, perhaps the judges/encoders/Bisqwit will be able to consider more than just the raw percentage of yes/no/meh votes when looking at the movie for publication. I trust that they will be able to recognize whether the "no" votes, if they exist, are a reflection of the perceived quality of the run or merely a dismissal based on an opinion of "A run of 'Chrono Trigger (J).smc' would have been better."
As a result, I don't think this argument is really important unless and until this run is completed and someone else makes a run on the (J) version to obsolete it.
That is not much of an argument Bob. Playing on the J version is a sure fire way of getting about 50% no votes. It seems like I will get some no votes either way, because some uneducated people want to compare two completely different games.
As a result, I don't think this argument is really important unless and until this run is completed and someone else makes a run on the (J) version to obsolete it.
Some uneducated people still compare 2 completely different games.
IMO, the (J) version, even if it's faster, shouldn't obsolete the (U) version in any case. How many people already said that language is a very important factor and they would so much more like to see a english version of this game to be able to follow it much better?
I think the best option would be to accept both runs (U and J) if that would happen, if only for seing the time differences. But I must add, that if the (U) version TAS would be already done, and somebody just copies it to make a TAS on (J) just to be faster, this would be very lame.
Maybe Bisqwit should take position and tell us all his view about it, to avoid risk and unnecessary surprises when the first TAS is done.
I'll join my voice in voting for staying with the (U) version. Assuming you lose 4-5 seconds for every minute, that's 1170 seconds(20 minutes). Does that take into account PAL/NTSC speed differences? And even so, most of the community here is English-speaking, and I'm betting a (J) run, no matter how optimized wouldn't obsolete your old run. It would probably end up being another Bionic Commando, and I don't think anyone wants that :P
But still, if you're *still* behind after 60 minutes I can see how vexing that might be.
To change the topic, isn't there any way to change the text speed in CT ?
To change the topic, isn't there any way to change the text speed in CT ?
I tested just now; pressing buttons while text is being displayed doesn't seem to have any effect whatsoever... I was thinking that mashing the buttons would cause lag, maybe, but it looks like it displays one character per frame no matter what.
I guess that means Hero can use JXQ's input editor with impunity? *shrug*
Anyone have any better ideas?
First of all, I'd like to put a disclaimer on this. The following comments are the result of things building up and these are all my opinions. I realize some of them sound rude, so I apologize in advance. It's just reached the point where it needs to be said. Thank you.
JXQ wrote:
But they're not the same game, so that comparison is flawed, which is what several people have been trying to tell you from the jump.
hero of the day wrote:
It seems like I will get some no votes either way, because some uneducated people want to compare two completely different games.
Saturn wrote:
Some uneducated people still compare 2 completely different games.
This doesn't make sense. In both games, you travel through time and stop Lavos, doing whatever tasks along the way. Both have the same characters, same story (barring version changes), same attacks, same enemies, same music, etc. So, how exactly are they "completely different?"
Because a game is in a different language, it's instantly a completely different game? To be blunt, I find that idea completely absurd. If you wanted to use that excuse, why not call Mega Man and Rockman completely different games? If they have any text at all, you can see that they are just completely different!
hero of the day wrote:
Playing on the J version is a sure fire way of getting about 50% no votes.
Now, that I can agree with. Sad that a lot of people will fail to realize that the game you remember (assuming you played it before watching the TAS, like you always should) is still there, only with a different language. This leads me into the whole "following" the TAS thing, which is ridiculous.
If I see Crono spin around a guy 4 times and hit him, it's Confuse...regardless of what the text says. If I see the cook in 600 A.D. give Crono's gang an important item, it's still the Jerky for the knights. If I see a big ugly freak with two arms and Doors of Doom, it's still Lavos. The list goes on and on, but you get the idea.
Now, I'll apologize again for saying things in a rather blunt manner. But please, somebody needs to see the error in the "it's a different game" logic.
There's a big difference between merely watching a tas and making a tas. It is annoying beyond hell trying to go through a four hours of the (J) version decoding all the attacks and whatnot.
Unless the (J) version has some big timesaving glitch that the (U) version doesn't have, it shouldn't be used. Faster text scrolling to lower time is not what tasing is about.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
There's a big difference between merely watching a tas and making a tas. It is annoying beyond hell trying to go through a four hours of the (J) version decoding all the attacks and whatnot.
Not to drive this off-topic, but do you realize who you are speaking to here (no offense)? If I can manage 7+ hour playthroughs of Chrono Cross (multiple times) in Japanese, a TASer should be capable of around 4 hours worth. Honestly, you get used to it and learn to recognize certain things, even without knowing the language. It's not that difficult.
Unless the (J) version has some big timesaving glitch that the (U) version doesn't have, it shouldn't be used. Faster text scrolling to lower time is not what tasing is about.
Besides, 4 hours in frame advance = 40 hours.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
laughing_gas is correct. The TAS will easily take 40 hours to make, so comparing it to a 7 hour speed run isn't relevant. I am fully capable of making the run on the J version, but like I said before it will be less enjoyable for me and the vast majority of the viewers.
In both games, you travel through time and stop Lavos, doing whatever tasks along the way. Both have the same characters, same story (barring version changes), same attacks, same enemies, same music, etc. So, how exactly are they "completely different?"
Timewise. If you thought that anyone here meant anything else, there is something wrong with your understanding. No one has said that there is anything else different about the versions. The point is that the versions simply cannot be compared in terms of completion time. Since using the (J) version changes nothing in the game except for the completion time, there is no point in making things difficult. The goal of these movies is to be entertaining, not to make some arbitrary number as low as possible.
laughing_gas is correct. The TAS will easily take 40 hours to make, so comparing it to a 7 hour speed run isn't relevant. I am fully capable of making the run on the J version, but like I said before it will be less enjoyable for me and the vast majority of the viewers.
I'll have you know that I spent days[/b] working on each one of those 7+ hour runs. They were the result of many, many hours of saving/loading state when things didn't go well enough. Therefore, they are comparable.
Also, to not TAS a certain version just because it would take you longer seems absurd to me. As far as I know, TASing isn't about how long it takes to get a finished product, but the quality of that product.
Because a game is in a different language, it's instantly a completely different game? To be blunt, I find that idea completely absurd.
It might be the same game underneath, but it's a different viewing experience. For whatever psychological reason a (J) run won't be enjoyable for a number of viewers. Since that version has no compensating feature except "slightly shorter texts", a (U) run is preferable.
IMO, tasing should take advantage of game breaking glitches, going OoB, mysterious warping, and other stuff that makes the viewer go o_O. Shorter texts alone is trivial, anybody can just switch to (J) version for that, there's no need for tasing tools, making it quite pointless. Of course, if there is an interesting glitch exclusive to the (J) version, I'm all for it.
And that's why the tases on this site are not dominated by the (J) versions.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Everybody, I have found a pretty good new strategy around the fight with Yakra, which would definitely be useful for hero or anyone's future Trigger run. I made a demo movie so that you can easily see how the new strategy is. Here it is.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/360133972/inichi_new%20strategy%20around%20the%20Yakra%20battle.smv
When you compare the same section, this movie is about 30 seconds faster than hero's run and roughly 25 seconds faster than my run. Also, I tried to optimize every event in this movie as much as I can, and I think the movement I did to optimize could be helpful for any runner as well. Maybe, I will post more detail of the strategy later.
Also, I have to mention that I found a way to be close to escape from Mom.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1208606651/escape%20from%20mom.smv
In this movie, it's only 2 pixels until Crono manages to escape from Mom. This is the limit I have done so far, and I actually once gave it up as hopeless. However, I thought it over and now I'm positive about the possibilities, since I realized I have seen a lot of impossible things turn into possible on this site. I wish the best luck for anyone trying to manage it. If you can, it enables you to save about 400 frames, so it is worth trying, I think.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Wow inichi, Awesome job!!
Those strategies you used in the cathedral were incredible. I don't even know how you got the enemies to cooperate like that.
The mom escape seems very possible. I will look more into this. Thanks for posting it :)
BTW, you seem to have some very good TASing skills. Are you considering doing a TAS of this game? I haven't really spent much time on it because I have been working on my new Super Metroid run lately. I think it would be cool if you made a a full TAS of this to obsolete my run, you have more detailed knowledge than I do.
here is my memory watcher file if you are interested.
Awesome job, inichi!
I'm highly impressed how good you managed to manipulate the criticals and the enemies position to always be in reach of the Fire Whirl tech.
I very much agree with hero, you should really try to do the any% TAS, since you are the person with the most speedrun knowledge in this game. It will also be a very interesting challenge to see if you can beat your SDA speedrun even by using the US version (which according to hero should be extremely hard if not impossible).
Regarding the Mom skip, this is extremely close. I really hope somebody can manage to do it, as it would save much time in any run. I too failed in it after trying, so let's see if hero can manage it.
