Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
cat wrote:
Kill things that are hard to kill.
But if killing monsters requires you to go hunting it around the screen, it's not very cool. It looks more like the monster is toying with you instead of the opposite.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
This time attack totally rocked...no offense to Bob, but this run is 100 times cooler. I loved using the feather to save time waiting for platforms.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Uhm, I dunno really why I ended up in this thread. I suppose it´s pretty far down on the forum now. Anyways, I also have checked this movie and im impressed. But isn´t it possible to skip all heart-collecting-rooms? to me they seem unnecessary for some reasons. 1. It looks uncool or something to go into those rooms for just getting hearts. 2. The only thing I saw (and remember now) is that you bought the feather which saved you 10 seconds. But didn´t all the rooms steal like 40 seconds or something? 3. Isn´t heart-collecting possible in the castles? There are pretty big enemies which gives 5 or 10-hearts/enemy. Correct me if im wrong. I make these statements according to the movie. I have completed the game myself several time but that was ages ago so I can´t remember all the stuffs.. Well that´s it.
/Walker Boh
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I think he has to kill enemies and collect hearts on a regular basis in order to collect the stronger arrows, which saves time in the long run. Personally, I am impressed by those rooms because they are very difficult to clear without taking a hit.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Feitclub: Indeed impressive. I didn´t know about the arrow upgrade. I mean that they are dependant on hearts. If thats the case I totally understand.
/Walker Boh
Post subject: Kid Icarus - The empty Rooms ?
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
Hi, my question isn't really speedrunning oriented but i don't know where else I should/could ask it. Ok here it is: Start Kid Icarus from the first Level and go into the first Door(about 2-3 Screens above You). What the hell is this empty room good for ? I remember other empty rooms in the game where u can get in but nothing happens. normaly there are traders which offer u waepons/energy/addons, but why are these rooms empty ? Did the programmer forgot to put something in it ? What do You think ? P.S. Sorry for my not so well english ;)
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
In the words of Seanbaby, "Thou Hath Wasted Thy F***ing Time". Seriously, that probably is the point of these rooms, to piss you off. Monster Party was another game like that...some doors had bosses you have to beat, others have powerups, and some are completely empty. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
That's an arrow power-up room. On the last level, all the skill points you earn won't count until after you finish the game and start on the first level again. Then, if you earned enough skill points, can head straight to that room where an arrow power-up will be waiting for you, assuming your arrow strength isn't maxed out already. However, if you're just starting the game...... then yeah, its just there to piss you off and make you feel empty inside(just like the room itself).
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Yeah, you get points for killing enemies and getting hearts. If you have enough, you get an upgrade. As sleepz said, its impossible to get it the first time through.
Post subject: You missed one trick
Former player
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 38
There is a way to kill medusa even easier and quicker you know, if you posistion yourself EXACTLY right between a up and down spot on the screen she miss's you entirely (She shoots down instead of towards you) while you fire off shots rapid fire My 2 cents if you make a new speedrun
Post subject: Re: You missed one trick
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Valagard wrote:
There is a way to kill medusa even easier and quicker you know, if you posistion yourself EXACTLY right between a up and down spot on the screen she miss's you entirely (She shoots down instead of towards you) while you fire off shots rapid fire My 2 cents if you make a new speedrun
That way would take twice as long to kill her. If there's any distance between Pit and the eye, then all shots you make will be single shots that reload at the regular rate. By moving up and down while firing, Pit will shoot what I refer to as double shots; firing two arrows at once but reload twice as long as the regular rate. But, if you press up against eye like in my video, Pit fires double shots at the regular rate. You can tell they are double shots because I kill Medusa with only 16 shots. This way, you can finish Medusa in 9 seconds instead of around 20 seconds the other way. The fact that Medusa is hitting me has no effect on how fast I finish her.
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 50
Ummm... How come it says that there are no downloads?
I'm the hero of yay.
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I have no idea about the download issue but since this thread has been raised from the dead I would like use this opportunity to inquire if someone might have the intrest to make a new movie of this game. We have two very old movies published and I'm sure it's possible to improve both of them by minutes. I also remember something about the 100% run not being truly 100%, but I'm not sure if I'm just hallucinating. If I'm not, I think one good run could replace both runs (and leave room for a good 100% / any% run, whichever isn't done first). So, any Kid Icarus wizards out there just itching to test their TASing skills? EDIT: And I guess this thread should be moved to the NES Games forum.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Necro necro necro. A few folks in the speedrun scene are taking up this game, and I'm not too clear on what causes moving platforms to spawn differently. Sometimes they spawn in different locations, and sometimes they move in different directions altogether. Example: Second to last platform in 1-2. Here is a video of me approaching it in two different ways. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9NOAW4XUh4 In attempt 1, I jump to spawn the 2nd platform in the video earlier. This allows me to progress quicker, but when the 3rd platform spawns, it is too far left to make the jump. In attempt 2, I don't spawn the 2nd platform early. This causes a longer wait for the 2nd platform, but spawns the 3rd platform differently so I can make the jump. Here is a picture illustrating where the platform is in the first & second clips, as it comes on screen at the top: http://i.imgur.com/AkPKLCC.jpg I was curious if Randil or anyone had any knowledge on what decides where platforms spawn/what direction they move in initially. The TAS actually doesn't make this jump, but I'm not sure if it's possible without losing time waiting for the platform which precedes it. (I haven't started practicing 2-2 yet, but meeting some of those cycles is tight enough that this might come into play there as well)
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Hello, it's nice to see the speedrunning community working on this game! Platforms spawn when once you're close enough to them in the vertical direction. In practice, they spawn just right before they appear on screen. And as you have noticed, this can be abused by making a small jump in order to get it to start moving. They always seem to appear in the exact middle of the screen, x coordinate 128 of 256 (I'm not sure I knew this when I made the TAS, but it's an interesting find). As for the direction they move in, I haven't been able to find a situation where their initial movement can be manipulated. Their initial movement seems to be unique for each platform, and might not be manipulatable. If you can find such a situation where you can get two different initial movement, feel free to upload two different movie files showing these different movements, I can look into it further. If you are comfortable with watching RAM addresses yourself, here's where their coordinates are stored: *Y positions in 0760, 0770, 0780, 0790 *X positions in 0763, 0773, 0783, 0793 (I can provide a lot more addresses as well, if you are interested)
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Thanks Randil! I monkeyed around with the addresses and this is some really cool stuff! I actually ended up investigating something totally different, which you probably already know - it looks like there are "categories" of enemies, and only 4 of a given category can be displayed at a time. If enemy names are confusing, here's a list: http://www.flyingomelette.com/kidicarus/kidicarusenemies.html Category A - Snakes Category B - Bouncing enemies, flying enemies (except reapettes), elevators, crawlers (ex. nettlers), castle crawlers (ex. kobils), collin/eeleye Category C - Reapettes Unknown - Floor enemies (ex. McGoo), Reapers. Sometimes reapers are category B enemies, and sometimes not. Mass enemy rooms (ex. Specknoses, or castles) allow 8 at a time, as they take up category B and I assume one other. In terms of respawns, category B is actually grouped in 4's, and a new group will not spawn until the entire group is defeated, and their hearts collected. Unlike snakes, which continue spawning as long as there aren't 4 on the screen, or reapettes, where only 4 spawn per "reaper call". This is extremely obvious just from playing the game, but it's cool that it's unique to each category. For the most part, this is all seamless due to how the levels are designed with regards to enemy placement. However, it's particularly apparent somewhere like 1-2, where a group of 4 flying enemies on the screen despawns one by one as you spawn platforms onto the screen. ----- SO, the reason this is all relevant is because I believe the position of a sprite as it spawns is affected by the position of whatever sprite it replaced in its category. Back to the particular moving platform I mentioned in my previous post. Here is a layout of all the nearby platforms: http://i.imgur.com/J8vsRjb.png To be clear, my ultimate goal here is to 1) spawn P2 as soon as possible to get it moving in its cycle, AND 2) position P3b in such a way that I can jump on it, then jump to the center block just to its right, thus skipping a cycle (as I do in the youtube vid I linked in my last post). To do #1, you just need to make P2 appear as early as possible. #2 is more confusing, and I believe is decided by when you jump to despawn P3a. If I jump to despawn P3a too early, P3b is moving left, and its x coordinates per frame are: -128, 127 (x2 frames), 126 (x2), and so on, which is the full speed of a moving platform. If I jump to despawn P3a a bit later, P3b is moving right (shown by underlined text), and its x coordinates per frame are: -128 (x2), -127 (x4), -126 (x8), -125 (x24), -126 (x4), -127 (x4), -128 (x2), 127 (x2), 126 (x2), etc. As you can see, it moves right all the way to x position -125, and it's not until the bolded text that it effectively "catches up" with the other cycle. This time is enough to jump on it, and then onto the central block. Thus, the spawn position of P3b definitely varies, and I think it's dependent on the last position of P3a. I approached the series of platforms in different ways, and if I despawned P3a when it was last at position -64 when moving right, P3b was in the ideal spot. (-64 was just a constant I chose, it's not tight to achieve the P3b positioning.) I hope this all makes sense, does this match your findings at all or is it possible I'm off base? ----- As for a platform moving in the "incorrect" direction, it's rare but I've definitely seen it. The only video I have of this phenomenon is here: http://www.twitch.tv/thesundaysequencebreak/b/377840856?t=3h17m42s Sorry for the weird format, but watch the upper left stream: when the last platform before the narrow part appears, it moves right instead of left.
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Aha, success! I think I have figured out how initial platform movement works: The key is their x speed RAM address, stored in 0764, 0774, 0784, 0794 , i.e. next to their respective x position. Treat these as signed values (i.e. 129 to 255 = -128 to -1). When they move right at normal (top) speed, their speed is 48. When they move left at top speed, their speed is -62 (I don't know why this is greater than their top right speed). Anyway, this speed is carried over to the next platform that occupies this RAM address. According to my finds, all platforms want to move left when they spawn. However, if the previous platform for that RAM address moved right, it first has to change direction, which is why we see this small initial movement to the right for P2. So by changing the value of this speed address when a new platform spawns, you can delay its initial movement to the left. When a platform bumps into something, its speed changes by 2 per frame (from 48 to -62, or vice versa). At speed 0 it stands completely still. Feel free to play around with this theory, perhaps you can correct me on some account.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Ahh that makes total sense! So for the particular platform I was talking about in 1-2, since I didn't jump, I must have simply delayed its cycle so that it was moving right instead of left when I finally did despawn it. Thanks!! I'm still not positive on the platform in 3-2 though. In most cases if a platform starts moving right, it simply nudges a bit to the right, and then turns around and moves left instead. However, this 3-2 platform can continue moving right. Here are a couple fm videos illustrating it, made in fceux 2.2.0 using rom "Kid Icarus (UE).nes". I haven't uploaded videos like this before so hopefully it gives you what you need. Left: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7623580508089370 Right: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7623632946558730 Another weird thing, I've actually noticed that even the very first platform in the game (in 1-2) varies a bit. Do you know if the flying enemies share the x-speed RAM address with platforms, like they do for x/y position? If so, perhaps the platform is affected by the left/right direction of whatever enemy last occupied that address.
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Interesting. After some research, the difference in this platform's movement is due to the global timer on RAM address 0014. This timer is mentioned in the published run's comments, and controls on what frame platforms move (I think they move when this is odd). If you try spawning this platform on different values of 0014, you should (if I'm correct here) see that it sometimes turns around, and sometimes keeps moving left. Normally, if the previous platform moved left, the next platform that spawns will gladly continue moving left. But for some reason, this 3-2 platform makes a "should I turn around?" check, even though it starts moving left. But it is only for some values of 0014 that it performs this check, and not on even or odd values, which control their movement, but accordeing to some other rule. This means that whether it moves left or right depends on this global invisible timer that can't be known in a console speedrun. I wonder what makes this platform behave seemingly differently than other platforms... I'll look into this a bit further. As for minor variation in platform movement: this might be due to the 0014 timer. Depending on this value when the platform is spawned, its movement pattern might differ a pixel or so, i.e. a very minor difference. If the difference you're talking about is greater than what this could cause, it might be something completely different. I can take a look at this too.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Very odd. When I play out the level, as long as nothing goes terribly awry, that platform always moves left. In the movie files, I actually intentionally missed that very early jump to the right, as I couldn't get the final platform to move right if I did the first part optimally. I didn't try very long so maybe I'm wrong there. But it would make sense, as that first platform is the one which shares the same RAM address as the platform in question.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
So, a few new strats have come up, some of which are tas improvements. 1) Wallwraps. First noticed by Jorf, investigated by Krankdud & me. Movie file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7660940499519359 You can fully clip into any wall which is 3 tiles high, and to the left of Pit. This works very similarly to the 1-4 skip, except you must be running at the wall before you jump. This gives you enough speed to clip in far enough to push you to the left, rather than simply push you back out of the wall. The easiest way to explain this is to rest Pit against the left wall, walk right for 22 frames, wait for him to stop, walk left for 12 frames, then hold left+A for 14 frames. You then have a large frame window to turn around, so that Pit "zips" slowly to the left, and wraps back to the right of the screen. You can do it without this elaborate setup - it's a 2 frame window to jump, and then a 2 frame window to release jump. From what I can tell, this is useful in 4 spots: - The 2-4 room seen in the movie. This saves up to ~58 seconds in realtime, probably closer to 45-50 in tas. - Very end of 1-3. You can wrap to the left of the final reaper, and jump into the door. Maybe saves 1-2 sec. - Allows an alternate route in 1-4, in the room 3 right & 2 down of the entrance. Cuts out 2 rooms in the route, probably saves like 8 sec. - You can use the head statue at the beginning of 2-2 in the upper left to screenwrap (you don't need a running start). If done in realtime, you eventually need to delay just a little bit so that you can dodge the flying enemies that come out from the side of the screen. 2) More overworld screenwraps. Found by Jorf. By jumping & ducking left into a ceiling (or snake urn) on the far left of the screen, Pit wraps around to the right side of the screen. Saves ~5 sec in 2-3 by not needing to wait for elevator positioning to set up the screenwrap. Possible in 2-1, but not helpful. Useless in 2-2 due to the faster wallwrap mentioned above. 3) Platform manipulation we've been discussing. This might lead to small improvements throughout, but if it's possible to have platforms move in the completely opposite direction, it would probably save several seconds each in the following spots: - 1-3 first platform (you actually already seem to manipulate this optimally in your tas but I can't tell how) - 1-3 last platform - 2-3 early platforms. You probably can't do anything here since there aren't any previous enemies or platforms, unless the addresses call back to the previous level's. - 2-3 platform we discussed previously, before narrow area.
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Woah, this is some awesome stuff. It seems I will have to look into redoing the TAS. Great job finding (and sharing) this!
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's how you can perform a wall zip on a 2 block high wall: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1145253740/kid_icarus_2_block_wallzip.fm2 I don't yet know how useful this is, but it's nice to know, none the less.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Cool! I looked around for an application of this and nothing immediately popped out to me. There's a room in 3-4 with the same design as the 2-4 skip room, where it would be nice to zip from the right side to left rather than vice versa. It even has a tile 3 spots above the floor, but there's no floor below it so if you try zipping you just fall through. There's also a 1-tile high spot in that room, but pit's minimum jump is so tall I don't see that working out. If Pit's x-speed while zipping is faster than his normal walking speed, there might be a bunch of tiny timesavers throughout the run by walking inside walls you'd normally walk on top of. But I don't think it is, plus even in a tas there would be minor setup time as you get stuck in the wall.
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Unfortunately, Pit's speed when zipping is the same as his normal speed, so I don't think it can be used in this sense. But on to some good news: here's a movie showing that it might be possible to zip from left to right, at least under certain conditions. In this movie I fall into the layer below me and jump my way out of the wall, getting pushed from left to right. I don't know if this can be put to use, but it's a cool trick none the less: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1552998004/kid_icarus_fall_zip.fm2 In any case, it would seem that we have not yet fully discovered everything about this wall zip trick. Also, if you're interested, here's some more info on zipping through walls: As you know, each block is 16*16 pixels. Blocks don't have collision detection for Pit's feet for the top 7 pixels, so while his feet are still in the top 7 pixels, he can move around freely inside the block. So what you want to do is make a jump that is just short of landing on the block, thus giving you the highest possible y position before starting to fall through the block, making the most out of these 7 pixels. If done correctly, during the time it takes you to fall these 7 pixels you will have moved far enough through the block to reach its left side, making it push you out on the other side. After some practice, this wall zip is quite easy to pull off with TAS tools. You have great control over jump height, since you can tap the A button during jumps to fine tune the jump height. You can try this yourself, monitor RAM address 001D when jumping.