I am glad the rules were changed to favor the (U) versions of ROMs. Even though the rule is still a bit loose and not as absolute as I'd like and most people will still probably ignore the part about posting at the forums, it's still better than what it used to be.
Being able to understand what is going on in an RPG or game is also nice, since it removes the "Wait, I can't even tell what's going on, who cares" factor.
How about you play the game before watching the run?
If you honestly expect everyone to play a potentially several-hour game just to understand what is going on, there is a problem. Especially when you consider that often players might not be good at games (I am horrible at RPGs, for example)
Although personally, I agree with adelikat. If time is saved outside of version change crap (e.g. text scroll speed) it should be fine, with a preference towards "U" versions.
At least then the "BUT THE J ROM IS FASTER IN TEXT!!!11" crap would go away. Oh wait, no it wouldn't, because some people would whine that the number indicating the run length isn't far enough down.
Bleh.
How about you play the game before watching the run?
I wish my site pleases also the audience who don't know the games. These playthroughs are also a way to introduce previously unknown games to the large audience (although a rather twisted way).
If your argument has any priority, then a majority of the "no" votes on Star Control II should have been ignored.
Also, Spineshark's "2" option was the case. (Well, I could have published it, but I really wanted to hear opinions first, and after hearing them, I wanted to have a clear verdict so that it doesn't look like I'm just soloing.)
I agree with most of what Xkeeper wrote in the two previous posts.
Also: Re: RPG games, you cannot possibly expect everyone to know of every secret item some RPG contains. The RPG game speedruns often use techniques or comboes that are unknown even to those who have completed the game, say, twice. For example, I had no idea whatsoever that Goblin Punch in FF5 has a level limitation effect.
There may be secret events the player did not know, hence the dialog is interesting to read. Also the dialog is interesting to read nevertheless for the game may be good because of the dialog.
My site's core audience is not the players who are expert at making speedruns. It is the people who enjoy watching games being played in ways they never fathomed.
It is just that without those experts, no content is generated. But the experts need to think of the actual audience.
Joined: 8/11/2006
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Sweden
Bisqwit wrote:
My site's core audience is not the players who are expert at making speedruns. It is the people who enjoy watching games being played in ways they never fathomed.
It is just that without those experts, no content is generated. But the experts need to think of the actual audience.
Apologies for the spam, but it has to be done. I LOVE YOU
IMO RPG TASes are different from the more "regular" TASes in that it makes little sense to watch them if you haven't played the game through.
Other TASes can be greatly enjoyed even if you have never played the game. For example, I always enjoy the Megaman TASes very much even though I have never played them. It's easy to follow what's happening because it's a relatively simple platform game with little to no plot.
However, RPGs are based almost solely on the *plot* of the game (besides having RPG elements such as increasing HP/SP, learning skills and spells, etc). A TAS cannot show the plot of the game. You have to have played the game so that you can know what's happening. Only then can you enjoy the TAS.
I usually don't watch TASes of RPGs I have not played. Besides the reason above, another one is that watching it would spoil the game, and perhaps I would like to play it some time in the future.
I wish my site pleases also the audience who don't know the games. These playthroughs are also a way to introduce previously unknown games to the large audience (although a rather twisted way).
I agree that this is a good goal for the site. However, I feel that there is a *significant* difference between movies made of reflex-oriented games and those runs with a larger focus on macro-level planning (like rpgs and I assume SCII). But while say a Mega Man tas has flashy tricks and showy moves to entertain random people, rpgs have a lot of canned animations and planning that's too arcane for people who don't know the game to understand, so in a way, all they can offer is plot to those people.
But I think not every movie can appeal to every viewer in the first place. For example, a lot of people didn't like the Ecco tas, but I find the game to be aesthetically appealing enough that the video was very enjoyable. I realize Castlevania, etc. is not an rpg (and has more ways to entertain viewers) but I'm going to draw attention to the first sentence of my other post anyway: do people support mandatory viewing of all cutscenes? As callous as it sounds, nobody is forcing anybody to watch any specific video, and if someone expects that watching a tas of whatever rpg won't be entertaining to them, they just shouldn't watch it. (I practice this policy avidly haha) My solution is idealistic, to be sure, but I will always believe that the decision of which version to use should be up to the creator of the movie. They should neither be forced to use one version because some people find it more entertaining nor another because it will shorten the length of the movie. Admittedly, this is less than an optimal solution for the publishing process because any time an obsoletion is presented, there is a burden on knowledgeable players to decide which movie is better performed.
Also: Re: RPG games, you cannot possibly expect everyone to know of every secret item some RPG contains. The RPG game speedruns often use techniques or comboes that are unknown even to those who have completed the game, say, twice. For example, I had no idea whatsoever that Goblin Punch in FF5 has a level limitation effect.
There may be secret events the player did not know, hence the dialog is interesting to read. Also the dialog is interesting to read nevertheless for the game may be good because of the dialog.
Again, I agree, but this is a hazard inherent in the genre and in either language an unusual technique may not make sense to viewers. It seems like most cases like this are described in the comments in any case, but I could be wrong.
Not that it has anything to do with the discussion, but what about a game like Landstalker where the Japanese version includes a scene that was removed for the US release? Would it be better to include the version with the "secret" scene? (also, the ending was made stupid for the US release, but I digress)
My site's core audience is not the players who are expert at making speedruns. It is the people who enjoy watching games being played in ways they never fathomed.
It is just that without those experts, no content is generated. But the experts need to think of the actual audience.
I am the sort of person who views rpg speedruns, whether tool-assisted or not, as a theoretical exercise above all else, so honestly, I usually prefer reading reports to watching the video (because the former takes so much less time). But for the same reason, I don't see why somebody watching the tas to witness the story couldn't read that on the side, and save themselves some time. Oh well. =/
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
RT-55J wrote:
You could always patch the game if the graphical error is not related to the emulator's quality. I doubt the judges would care very much as long as the end result doesn't desync with the original rom and it looks exactly like the (E) version.
Mmmmm... not sure about that. I think it'd be very much akin to the rule prohibiting translation patches. (The glitch exists on the cartridge itself, so you'd have to rip code out of the rom to fix it. And that would cause a whole mess of issues which may not be obvious even if you tested it with a .smv)
Halamantariel wrote:
This is a pretty selfish comment, but the currently published Lufia II run uses the (U) rom which has a horrible horrible horrible (times 1000) graphic bug somewhere in the game, which the (E) version doesn't have.
With the rules stated above, I would NOT have a choice to use the damned ugly (U) rom? Unless that rule of "voting" to accept the version change is used. That could be good...
Unfortunately for people who'd like to see that shrine in the published run, there's a second reason not to use the (E) ROM: PAL timing. The (E) ROM plays in exactly as many frames, but the emulator actually displays them slower. Thus, the final movie would be longer. Sucks, dunnit? =\
I feel like the spirit of the original rule was solid, it was just worded too vaguely. I think the intention was that TASers should use the rom version that:
a) allows them to play the game the fastest (I.e: utilized the most tricks/bugs/glitches or includes less lag)
b) provides the most challenge (if any one version of the rom is more or less challenging beyond the inclusion/exclusion of a trick than another)
c) looks, sounds, and feels the cleanest
d) provides the most entertainment from other factors (e.g: the dialogue in one version is funnier/easier to read)
in that order. All of those factors contribute directly to potential entertainment value. Interestingly enough, the first can actually clash directly with the second, and in at least one case it clashes directly with the third*. So maybe the order there is up for debate. Or perhaps should be weighed on an individual basis; I dunno.
I also think it's good to set up a "default" rom, so that we don't have people switching to a different version just because the intro screen is shorter. Faster-scrolling (but completely unintelligible) text is open for debate and may fall under that first guideline; I won't go there just yet. But the extra second that a longer intro adds to a movie has no business being factored in.
*: I speak here of the Lost Vikings movie. The quality of the sound on the Genesis rom is crap, yet even back when the published version only used 2 players, it was the version chosen because it's the faster one to run.
Edit: I also feel that I should add that I've always felt that the rules of this site were to be taken as a whole and not piecemeal. And if taken as a whole, they give a very clear impression that this site values quality of runs more than anything else. Not frame-perfection. We strive for speed, but before that we look for quality (The results of the last submission for River City Ransom should be enough to demonstrate that.)
Edit: I also feel that I should add that I've always felt that the rules of this site were to be taken as a whole and not piecemeal. And if taken as a whole, they give a very clear impression that this site values quality of runs more than anything else. Not frame-perfection. We strive for speed, but before that we look for quality (The results of the last submission for River City Ransom should be enough to demonstrate that.)
Unforunately, most people forget this and seem to think it's based entirely on speed.
I've kind of dispised the way it's going (while speed can create entertainment in itself, it is not a substitute)... but there's nothing I can do.
The site itself seems to be going that way, as well, as noted by the general change from "superplay" (demonstrating the unordinary) to "speedrun" (going fast).
I actually have issues with the site going the other way, where a good speed run that would have been appreciated in the old days gets rejected because it's not wild and crazy enough to keep someone with ADD glued to the screen.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
And if taken as a whole, they give a very clear impression that this site values quality of runs more than anything else. Not frame-perfection.
Usually frame perfection is quality. In the vast majority of cases frame perfection is the only possible measurement of quality. Exceptions exist, of course, but they are rare.
Usually frame perfection is quality. In the vast majority of cases frame perfection is the only possible measurement of quality. Exceptions exist, of course, but they are rare.
I wouldn't say rare, it's just that most that are thrown are also caught and handled properly. It's only those which aren't that cause problems in the system, and thereby generate large amounts of user feedback / complaints.
I think 4 is best, if there is significant variation between the games. Because keep in mind that some games, I.E. Pokémon Red, are so glitchy in the original Japanese versions that they can be beaten in five minutes.
