Post by Spider-Waffle

Posted: 4/26/2007 10:57 AM

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Hina98

Joined: 3/15/2007
Posts: 131

I never thought it would be done

Posted: 4/26/2007 10:59 AM

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Acryte

Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon

heh, yea.... so basically, now we have yet another set of tasks to do if we want to do this in a timely fashion... we need to get that damn sword as quick as possible... BECAUSE... using standard BA w/ 50 deku nuts gives poachers saw on B... but that requires beating forest temple... so basically it is a matter of how we can sort through bottle adventure, Reverse bottle adventure, and event items to get to the broken goron sword as early as possible. Also note that odd mushroom can be aqcuired as a child in gerudo desert... Is skipping to the odd mushroom in this way faster? I have 1 last idea to try and break the game... let me see how it all works out (I don't think this one will work though). (didnt work) Now, is it worth it to get poachers saw w/out beating forest? My guess is yes. Im thinking we go grab poachers saw manually, and then once we get it, we do the BA and use reverse bottle adventure to gain warp songs and lullaby (skipping Zelda in the process). Then we run to Gerudo and grab broken gorons sword. Use reverse Bottle adventure to grab the medallions; warp to shadow (aka graveyard) and grab a poe on the way up to Death Mountain crater for magic. go grab magic and warp w/ prelude back to ToT (see light arrow cutscene). Equip light arrows, then put letter in bottle on c-right and empty and catch the fish to fill the quiver... Then go to ganondorf. You get 1 shot before you have to empty and catch the fish again to replenish it, but you only need 1 so... reequip the mastersword and you can use it go go through the iron knuckle fights, etc quicker. Than kill light arrow ganon and call it good. also, im pretty sure skipping hoverboots and basically all of forest spirit and shadow but having to view the bridge and the light arrow cutscenes is faster than all the other alternatives... Oh, and sorry guano.

Wisdom; Power; Courage.

Posted: 4/26/2007 12:10 PM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I'm kind of lost a bit here, what is overworld route for the game now?

Posted: 4/26/2007 12:43 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

So this brings the estimated time to 1:45ish?

Borg Collective wrote:

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Posted: 4/26/2007 2:32 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (735)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

Holy Crap! This would actually give me motivation to not do 100% but to do this new BA run instead. I was never in the mood to redo guano's run to save frames, but was only interested if a complete new route was done that would guarantee sub 2 hours, and it looks like there's one now. Awesome! Guano, thoughts?

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Posted: 4/26/2007 7:13 PM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

I just need the new route and Ill finish. The temple gave me another desynch. Acryte....Amazing....Simply fucking amazing.....

Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.

Posted: 4/26/2007 7:15 PM

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Takarifreak

Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 45

Holy CRAP, what a great find. Next thing you know, someone is gonna find a way to glicth the game so badly that it'll be beaten in 30 seconds. I don't know what's more entertaining now...beating a Zelda game 100%, or watching it be totally broken and screwed with that actually playing the game is a joke.

Posted: 4/26/2007 7:20 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (735)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

GuanoBowl wrote:

I just need the new route and Ill finish. The temple gave me another desynch. Acryte....Amazing....Simply fucking amazing.....

I'm not sure how early the new route starts diverging, but pretty early I'm guessing since it might be beneficial to get some extra stuff as kid link. I think we'd need to see the new route completed first, and find exactly where the diverge occurs, and if it's early enough to merit a restart (which I already have a good jump on in a roundabout way) or if taking your .m64 and starting from mid way or later. And if it's going to be taking the game to the maximum fastest, might as well do it right from the beginning. Fortunately, I already have a frame perfect start up to the slingshot that's already 6 seconds faster... and that first owl skip begs to be used...

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Posted: 4/26/2007 7:49 PM

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Blaise

Joined: 12/28/2004
Posts: 210

...you guys are evil ; ;. This poor game.

Posted: 4/26/2007 8:01 PM
(Edited: 4/26/2007 9:38 PM)

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Acryte

Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon

Yea, I'm not sure how beneficial it is to start early since we need poachers saw and other adult event items for BA... we save a bombchu not going to zelda and if we don't use the letter in the bottle then we can jumpslash into jabu like usual. Damn, shame the only item that gives you both goron ruby and zora's sapphire is just for Adult link to equip. Anyways, if we grab odd mushroom in gerudo fortress, then we can skip having to wait for certain times of the day, etc. plus it comes later in the sequence and depending on how long it takes to get, it may be beneficial to do so. Only thing is, if we dont have bombs yet then does it save time? Because we have to run back there after the deathwarp and go to gerudo and get it. I'd say we complete dodongo's w/ chus and then go there again. After that we can jump the river (get caught) and take it to hylia. Now, would it be faster to run there and grab gold scale and while we are there, steal the rod? Then we can dive and grab the letter in a bottle, and go to jabu jabu through the warp. If we find a fairy (like in the elevator in jabu, I think is the closest... though we could get the 1 in dodongo's up by the pushable block, but I don't think we will need it that early, and it is a little further out of the way), then we can equip the bottled fairy to C-right and then catch the fish out of Bottle B and score ourselves 25 deku sticks. Here is the only problem, and why we should probably delay BA until we become an adult (unless it saves time as a kid, though other than deku sticks I'm not seeing how it does)... we don't get to keep the bottle on B as an adult... whoever figures out the proper combo to do so, I will personally give them a cookie. So we have to go back to hylia and do it again. It's also a shame that the only items that give us serenade of water using reverse BA are Adult items. I tried all of the child event items, etc. They don't have an effect. we should still have a fish in the other bottle though so good times w/ that. We just take the odd mushroom to the hag in kakariko, then take the zora's river warp to lost woods get poachers saw by trading the potion. Then we can either warp to zora's river and then from zoras domain we can warp to hylia and then grab Bottle B and then head to gerudo valley or we can just deathwarp to TOT and then run to hylia, and get Bottle B and go to gerudo. Trade saw for goron sword. Use that w/ reverse BA and warp to Shadow w/ nocturne and run up go get magic. run and grab magic from up top and then warp to TOT and go to ganon. our other alternative is to try and squeeze BA in earlier so that we can get magic along the way and jump down to enter Goron City and take that to lost woods to deliver the potion... plus we then save more time too by having serenade of water at that point instead of taking warp to zora river -> zora;s domain -> lakehylia. But... we lose time getting to lake hylia in the first place because it is more out of the way... Overall the route sounds pretty concrete aside from 2 different variations that need to be tested or at least considered so that we choose the fastest path... 1) Early odd mushroom (I'm pretty sure we save time on this one), though it means an extra trip to gerudo valley as a kid w/ bombchus. 2) Early Magic (once we become an adult)... since we need reverse BA before goron sword so we can learn warp songs off the Poachers Saw... this is the earliest we can learn songs, and "early Magic" means we already would have BA when we grabbed the saw in lost woods and could then go to grab magic, then warp to hylia w/ serenade, and then run to gerudo, then warp to TOT (which sounds pretty good...) This means after we grabbed the odd potion we would probably just take superslide to hylia and grab BA then Hylia -> Zoras domain -> Zora's river -> Lost woods -> get saw -> lost woods -> goron city (if this is faster than nocturne to graveyard to magic) -> magic -> serenade of water -> gerudo valley -> broken goron sword -> prelude to TOT. also, we can technically beat forest and then use BA to get poachers saw and go trade that for broken goron sword, but I think that is much slower. Since we learn minuet, beat the temple, have to get hookshot or use lots of chus for the bombhover (which probably means getting a bottled poe from the graveyard). Those are our 2 route options we can take... Damn.... catching a bug in the bottle w/ that damn odd potion gives you all 3 stones, and the song of time... I kid you not... shame it is an adult item... damn.

Wisdom; Power; Courage.

Posted: 4/26/2007 8:01 PM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

here is my baby girl. Shes 2 weeks old in that picture. She is now 2 1/2 months!

Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.

Posted: 4/26/2007 8:32 PM

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Hina98

Joined: 3/15/2007
Posts: 131

hey congratulations! What's her name?

Posted: 4/26/2007 9:22 PM
(Edited: 4/28/2007 2:54 AM)

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Acryte

Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon

Route Changes: Need to replace Hoverboots w/ Epona Early and then figure out our Dodongo's entrace issue... Child: 1. Get Sword + Shield 2. Beat Deku Tree + Grab Slingshot 3. Grab Super Cucco bottle (you can't do this if you don't wake Talon huh? if that is the case do Kakariko Bottle... the time difference is probably less than making a pointless trip to hyrule castle, especially if we are on our way to Dodongo's Cavern) 4.[VOID] Early Spirit (Bombchus) -> we must weigh the difference and time saved... we don't need requiem anymore... we may profit from beating dodongo's normally and not even going to spirit at all... then we could just do dodongo's normally (and lose time) but still have bombbag upgrade from the bowling to use for jabu jabu and in order to skip King Ruto and keep the Letter in the Bottle. We would have some for when we do in fact to go Gerudo Valley to get the Odd Mushroom (if that is indeed faster...) If you need more bombs eventually I'd suggest Jumping down and getting a full LonLon Milk in your bottle from that cow. That way after you use up almost all your Bombs doing BombHover to the Odd Mushroom, you can refill them if need be later off Reverse BA... Question is, how many bombs do we even need? Unfortunately we still can't skip hoverboots because of the broken bridge... so... we still have to do shadow... But the hell with hookshot :) 4. Dodongo's Cavern 5. Bombchu Bowling (Bombbag) 6. Gerudo Valley (Odd Mushroom) 7. Gerudo Valley River -> Hylia (Get Caught) 8. Gold Scale + Letter in Bottle 9. Hylia -> Zora's Domain 10. Jabu Jabu (Jumpslash to Enter) [Get a Fish in Bottle] 11. Beat Jabu Jabu 12. Din's Fire (unless it takes less time as step 2 in Adult section using bombhover, we should get this... also we will have few bombs so unless we get full lon lon milk in a bottle to use, we can't replenish them so easily and it will cost time, however, we don't really need bombs for anything else so... it just depends how much we have currently after doin early Odd Mushroom) 13. Grab OoT and pull Master Sword Adult: 1. Go to Kakariko Village + Get Odd Potion 2. Go to Shadow using bombhover (will use 4 bombs) and grab Hoverboots + before entering, grab a bug(this is a better option than waiting till after Poachers saw and learning Nocturne because you can't kill that creature to get the boots w/out a sword, so it is better to do it before Bottle Adventure, because then you would have to reequip sword, kill it, and then do BA AGAIN after warping to Lake Hylia before heading to Gerudo Valley) 3a. Graveyard -> Death Mountain Trail -> Goron City -> Lost woods -> Get Poachers Saw (Option A) 3b. Graveyard -> Hyrule field -> Superslide to Kokiri Forest -> Lost woods -> Get Poachers Saw (Option B ... Probably slower) 4. Superslide to Hylia + Steal Rod and get Bottle on B (Hoverboots will also save time since we don't have to run to the rock to do the Steal the Rod trick) 5. Use Reverse BA to get Warp Songs (Prelude + Lullaby + Serenade + Nocturne) 6. Superslide to Gerudo Valley 7. Hover Superslide across the Broken Bridge + Get Broken Goron Sword 8. Use Reverse BA to get Forest, Spirit, Shadow Medallions (if bug is used you also get the Water Medallion too) 9. Use Nocturne of Shadow to warp to Graveyard + Go to Magic Fairy Fountain 10. Warp to ToT using Prelude + Get Light Arrows 11. Use Reverse BA to update 25 Arrows into the arrow quantity. (Note that you get 1 shot and then since you have no bow or quiver, then it will 0 the value. This step can be done whenever) 12. See Rainbow Bridge Cutscene and go to Ganondorf 13. Equip MS 14. Kill Ganon _________________________________ Instructions for Reverse BA: [Key: C=Child A=Adult] A.5 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Poacher's Saw]. Fish is fine too but you won't learn Nocturne so you have to grab a bug sometime before trading poacher's saw or else you lose Prelude of light by using empty bottle to learn it. A.8 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Broken Goron's Sword]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you also get the Water Medallion too (Not like it matters). A.11 -> B[Bug],C-Right[Bottled Letter]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you get 29 arrows updated instead of 25 w/ the Fish (not like it matters since you only get 1 shot) Description: Bottle Adventure is about using the items on C-right to get things onto the B button by traveling forwards and backwards in time. Reverse Bottle Adventure is about using the Bottle on B w/ different things you can catch to update things into your inventory that are determined by both the item on C-right (which determines the type) and the item on B (which determined the quantity of the adjusted amount, or the specific things that are altered in the menu). Steps: Put the required item on C-right, then Catch the specified object in the Bottle that is on B (or empty it and catch it), in order to update your inventory appropriately. NOTES: HAHAHA I used it to unequip and delete my Kokiri Tunic.... I want to see a like like eat me after I equip another tunic and see what happens...

Wisdom; Power; Courage.

Posted: 4/26/2007 9:39 PM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

You need poacher's saw to get broken goron sword? I thought you could just get the fake sword in goron city whenever you wanted then break it?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 4/26/2007 9:46 PM

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Acryte

Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon

nope, that is a different one, we need the event item one that we can put on our C-buttons. The one you can just buy is the "Goron Knife" unfortunately and is listed in your equipment. The other one is broken when you receive it and is in the Adult Event Items section of the menu.

Wisdom; Power; Courage.

Posted: 4/26/2007 10:56 PM

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JSmith

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428

Acryte wrote:

Damn.... catching a bug in the bottle w/ that damn odd potion gives you all 3 stones, and the song of time... I kid you not... shame it is an adult item... damn.

What items do you need in order to use reverse bottle adventure to get the odd potion and broken sword? (also, could you please concisely summarize the steps needed to reproduce Reverse BA?)

Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

Posted: 4/27/2007 1:08 AM

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DemonStrate

Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA

All i have to say is... thats really awesome that someone figured out the random item that would make this whole thing work out. Acryte, this run will be the best... possibly beating the already super glitchy Mario 64 16 star run. History is in the making. Guano, you going to be doing it or someone else?

"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."

Posted: 4/27/2007 1:21 AM
(Edited: 4/27/2007 2:56 AM)

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (735)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

Guano and I are going to do this together it appears. The route is different enough to warrant my interest (as I expressed, I don't like redoing what's already been done, and it was suggested for me to obsolete the any% v2 progress, which I disliked. with a new route and much shorter expected time, this is more appealing to me), and to be frank I don't think this community is ready for a 5:45 hour movie of 100% (plus I waited on 4 things for 100% to start; with this, we only have 1, waiting for a route to be constructed.) IMO, SDA's watchers are more patient and equipped to watching longer runs. When TAS's push the 1 hour limit is when our people start to get antsy (and even less than an hour, sometimes half an hour pushes people's attention limits.) so sub 1:45 seems like a more anticipated, watchable goal than sub 6 hours. I've taken the v2 route wiki page and centered it more for v3, so it's ready for basic route creation, and then editing/refining. I've already included Acryte's descriptions of his findings so those reading will now what requirements need to be filled for the v3 route. JSmith: I can't answer either of those. BA and reverse BA confuses the shit out of me. I know what the end result is, but the technicality and order of it, and how it works baffles me. Demonstrate: OoT is never going to outmatch SM64 on this site ever. far too many people have ingrained ideas that SM64 is the best (and only) N64 game oriented for TASing, and their beliefs cannot be changed (I try very hard to change these pedagogues on a daily basis.) The OoTers on this site and elsewhere (which still consists of a LOT of people) are going to have their lifelong dream of having a sub 2 hour any% finally be accomplished, but OoT haters will always remain so, no matter how short the game is beaten. Guano: Cutest baby girl I have seen in a long while (then again, I don't look at baby pictures that often, but she's a heartwarmer.)

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Posted: 4/27/2007 1:29 AM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Its a double edged sword I guess. Too quick and there is too many cutscenes or text, too long and it becomes excesive backwalking and movie length.

Posted: 4/27/2007 1:36 AM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (735)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

Of course it's a double edged sword. Link has a sword! It has edges on both sides I should hope! As those watching the 100% segments might notice, ratio wise it would include less backwalking than the first published any%. And those in the know know full well that I'm a certain fan of sidehopping... And will this run impress the OoT haters? probably not. Despite being shorter, it might involve lots of item swapping and generally more confusing stuff that they'd not understand and just go "bah, it was faster, still hated it." I do plan on helping making it as frame precise as possible, and explore every single time and frame saver to truly make this the fastest possible run of the game with current (and maybe foreseeable) knowledge, so they won't be able to catch me with my pants down on that score :-P

Acryte wrote:

Route Changes: Child: Get Sword + Shield Beat Deku Tree + Grab Slingshot Grab Super Cucco bottle (you can't do this if you don't wake Talon huh? if that is the case do Kakariko Bottle... the time difference is probably less than making a pointless trip to hyrule castle, especially if we are on our way to Dodongo's Cavern) Early Spirit (Bombchus) -> we must weigh the difference and time saved... we don't need requiem anymore... we may profit from beating dodongo's normally and not even going to spirit at all... then we could just do dodongo's normally (and lose time) but still have bombbag upgrade from the bowling to use for jabu jabu and in order to skip King Ruto and keep the Letter in the Bottle. We would have some for when we do in fact to go Gerudo Valley to get the Odd Mushroom (if that is indeed faster...) If you need more bombs eventually I'd suggest Jumping down and getting a full LonLon Milk in your bottle from that cow. That way after you use up almost all your Bombs doing BombHover to the Odd Mushroom, you can refill them if need be later off Reverse BA... Question is, how many bombs do we even need? We can skip Hoverboots (actually can we? because I know the bridge is broken as an adult but can we superjump it because I know longshot needs to be skipped...), Hookshot, [unfinished]

Some of these confuse me. (maybe I just don't fully comprehend the sporadic way your mind works...) I prefer to see a list of what to do in what order, but I guess since it's still in the figuring out stages it can be disorganized... still... ugh, some of these start to make sense when I look at them more, some still befuddle. I should probably leave it in your hands. I thought having the forest, shadow, and spirit medallions makes the bridge appear. so if the goron sword is turned into the medallions, we don't need hoverboots, or hookshot. But then if a superjump is used, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the new discoveries, since we still need to get hoverboots, and the hookshot, and such in order to get the forest medallion to travel through time? if that's the case, what has changed from v2?

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Posted: 4/27/2007 8:06 AM

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Acryte

Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon

Hahaha no no no, im still putting this all in order. all the smaller text things are notes explaining why we need certain things either now or later. As for the medallions needed, that is for the broken bridge in gerudo valley... we cannot cross it as an adult in order to deliver the poachers saw to the lead carpenter. I'll get it organized don't you worry. WELL I have updated it and I think I got it all figured out :) Look it over and tell me what you think. Especially, AKA and MWL. I've tested out and confirmed all the different combinations for Reverse BA. Let me say that it is as good as it gets. You can get different tunics etc, but no hoverboots, hookshot, etc. So it's all good.I don't see any other developments concerning it that could make this any faster other than this: Having Bottle B stay on B when you become an adult (the 1st time), AND finding some crazy way to get odd potion on C-right as a Kid before becoming an adult. Other than that, the route seems pretty damn secure. OH, and also if you found a way to make a bottle in a location in the menu turn back to it's normal item (aka we use reverse BA to get a bottle in the place in the menu, and then turn that back to normal)

Wisdom; Power; Courage.

Posted: 4/27/2007 12:28 PM

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DemonStrate

Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA

To Comical: I read a few of the threads in here and on SDA, so i like to get both sides of the picture. I also read and helped with the Half-Life 2 DQ run, and i generally like to lurk around in forums instead of posting since most of the time i have nothing interesting or new to say. I like to watch alot of TAS's and other speedruns, but i really think that any avid speedrun fan will throughly enjoy someone completely taking the OoT speedrunning to the next, and probably final, level. I wish i had the time or effort to speedrun myself, but ive only ever been able to help out with minimal things on some SDA runs. I hope to someday do my Counter-Strike: Condition Zero run which i started over a year ago, but i really would have to get a determined fanbase to do it. I really respect your desire to work with Guano on this. I've seen almost all of Guano's WIPs of any of the OoT stuff so far, and I believe this will put TASing of N64 games to the max. Hopefully, the SM64 people will respect it.

"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."

Posted: 4/27/2007 1:17 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

AKA once said this game is more broken than SM64. ~90% (maybe more) of this game is skipped, compared to 77% for mario.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 4/27/2007 2:05 PM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I'm not really sure about that route it sounds like a really excessive diversion to get certain things. I know you can get the odd mushroom as a child with just one bombchu (or was it with a bomb and bombchus). Didn't you say that you could steal the rod as a child just so you could get bombchus?, that would save quite a heavy diversion to Gerudo. Then again if you want to reach Gerudo with hoverboots or hookshot, then you can bomb hover but that takes way to much time and explosives to do so, my only suggestion is to get Epona via the Epona early trick, but really I think you're better getting the odd mushroom as a child. I know in Jaytheham it mentions you can enter the carpenters tent as a child but I've never been able to do this or is it a version specific bug? Lets break this down how does it save time Firstly getting to the Forest Temple would take an extra 3-4 mins starting form Goron City. Going through the Forest and beating the boss would take about 8-10 mins and the cutscene afterwards is about 5-6 mins long, but it avoids the very important light arrows cutscene which last for about 7 mins, but it wastes an extra min getting into Ganons castle becuase of all that seam climbing walking stuff etc. So if I average it out the diversion for the reverse BA would need to take less than 25 mins, I'll subtract the light arrows cutscene to give an overall diversion time of 18 mins. From my estimates I don't think it will save the time laughing gas earlier suggested. I reckon the optimal route with an optimalish execution will take an overall time of 1:54

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