Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Following discussion from this thread, I've discovered that I do not know a sufficient meaning to this term.
Is a pride movie something you are proud of afterwards? If so, I venture to guess that 90% of the movies of this site qualify.
Is a pride movie something that says "look what I can do better than you"? If so, then all of the runs that obsolete a current run are for pride.
A pride movie may be a movie that is made just to garner the author attention, but what if it's a damn good movie? The rules state that pride movies aren't considered, but unless the author comes right out and says that they made it just for their own recognition, this would be hard to judge.
Similarly, is a pride movie one that is done simply to gain recognition for the community? The same problems arise as in the previous point.
Does fun have a factor? If you had fun making a run, does this automatically mean it can't be a pride movie? And conversely, if you didn't have any fun making it, does this automatically make it a pride movie? (I don't know how people could do this without having fun, but that's just me).
All in all I'm still unsure what this term is supposed to mean, and it seems that whatever definition I come up with, I can come up with a rather good counterpoint. Thoughts?
EDIT: Not exactly on the same topic, but related-- The rules state "Do not look at getting a run published as the ultimate goal and do the run half-heartedly. Put your heart into the run itself", yet Comicalflop got made fun of and derided for doing that exact thing. Just a little more inconsistency...
I think saying comicalflop got made fun of because he "Put his heart into the run itself" or for "refusing to do a run half-heartedly" is very inaccurate. I think I read "whiney bitch" being thrown around, which may or may not be a nice way of putting it, but either way it had very little (nothing) to do with the rules text you quoted.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
This is a bit offtopic... anyway, I believe that the submission are judged based both on the player's experience and the "put your heart into the run itself".
That is, if you're new here and do a not-really-perfect, but if it's clear that you really putted great effort on it, it's likely to be accepted.
On the other hand, if you're an old member here, and everyone knows your quality work, it will be harder to get the proper recognition. Also, nobody would admit it, but being a "popular" guy surely helps a lot too.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Fabian wrote:
I think saying comicalflop got made fun of because he "Put his heart into the run itself" or for "refusing to do a run half-heartedly" is very inaccurate. I think I read "whiney bitch" being thrown around, which may or may not be a nice way of putting it, but either way it had very little (nothing) to do with the rules text you quoted.
He perhaps did sound somewhat whiney, but I also think that the way people responded to him was childish and immature. I know he had (as the text I quoted said), put his heart into his run, and that made his reaction easier to understand for me than apparently some people, who simply thought he was complaining. Complaining about something and truly being hurt by something are two totally separate things, and if he is truly serious about "quitting", I cannot believe that is anything but being hurt. People have different emotional reactions to different things, and name calling and taunting when someone is trying to express those emotions is far, far worse than being "whiny", in my opinion.
SXL wrote:
bossman,
I definitely agree it's unfortunate comicalflop felt so disappointed (or hurt) over this. No one made fun of him for putting his heart into the run or refusing to do it half-heartedly though, not even close.
"and name calling and taunting when someone is trying to express those emotions is far, far worse than being "whiny", in my opinion. "
Name calling is not often justifiable, I agree. I think calling out said people and discussing things in a nicer manner is, though. Some people did just that, and I think they all helped getting the main point across to comicalflop.
I think the intention of "owning" a movie (something we discussed with mmbossman a bit in the Vectorman thread), some of its particular aspects — tricks, strategies, stylistic choices, etc. — or the priority in submission or publication makes a movie a pride movie. Ethics aside, this community is pretty much "open-source" in many aspects (the main of them being the availability of movie files after they're submitted in their entirety), so nothing technically prohibits anyone from copypasting a chunk of a completed movie into their own, and people understand that.
That being said, claiming rights for a run, the submission priority or anything like that is useless and noticeably counterproductive, and it leads to "dramas" like the one in MK64 submission. The less personal affection you have for a run you make, the easier it is both for you to have it obsoleted and for the author who decides to do so.
Also, consider the point that for "putting one's heart into a run", Comicalflop considered gaving up on it way too quickly, whereas I, for example, would go on without regard to anything, exactly for that same purpose.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Yeah, I was mostly pissed off about the first page and a half of the thread, things started to get more civil after that (with a couple exceptions). And I do hope those who came to the situation with a constructive solution/criticism did help him.
I was still hoping to simply use his situation as an example to help clarify the title of this thread though, which I'm still at a loss for.
The less personal affection you have for a run you make, the easier it is both for you to have it obsoleted and for the author who decides to do so.
That being said, people do need motivation.
I can fully understand Comicalfop's case: "everyone becomes happy and surprised when they see this movie" is a very motivating event to anticipate, whereas "achieving the frame-perfect timing" is more like "what's the point".
The less personal affection you have for a run you make, the easier it is both for you to have it obsoleted and for the author who decides to do so.
That being said, people do need motivation.
I can fully understand Comicalfop's case: "everyone becomes happy and surprised when they see this movie" is a very motivating event to anticipate, whereas "achieving the frame-perfect timing" is more like "what's the point".
That being said, they're not mutually exclusive, as I have stated in my post in the submission message. :)
I myself use that as a motivation for the run I'm currently producing as well, but I will continue working on it even if someone will submit a run only marginally slower than mine (I refuse to believe someone can make it faster, definitely not in this case). Moreover, the recent events related to it, including Kejardon solving a possibility for 9% run, didn't stop me as well, even though they easily could.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
And you don't do it for your ego?? Don't make me laugh.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
To put it simply, I'm doing it because it is an awesome brain game. Saving frames compared to TASers like Hero of the day, Saturn and JXQ is a joy by itself, even if the result has no future. Not to mention the fact that it's my favorite game and I really like how the result looks.
Even if someone (though it is highly unlikely) will manage to improve it in the future, I personally will accept it rather easily (except if they ruin the style).
I assume it has something to do with ego in either way, but since I'm doing it mainly for myself, I don't care much about publicity and thus don't actively announce my accomplishments (except between some of my TASing friends, including the aforementioned people).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am happy you made this thread mmbossman. I hope it will stir up some intelligent conversation, and make people less emotionally attached to their "achievements". I am VERY much against people playing for themselves and not the community. I produce movies for others to enjoy, not to raise my status in the community.
The Rules I live by:
#1 - Do not keep secrets. People who keep secrets are playing for pride or ego. Keeping secrets just so your run will be better than someone else's when you are done is just foolish and counterproductive. All information should be shared with the community in order to produce the best possible movie, regardless of author.
#2 - ENJOY SEEING YOUR MOVIES OBSOLETED. How many people here say that? not very many at all. I enjoy TASes because they push the game to the limit. If someone manages to improve upon a game that I really like, then this is a good thing. There is no reason to get angry. If you are so full of pride that you fear seeing your runs obsoleted, that is just sad.
#3 - Never make claims of how good you are, or how perfect your run is. Arrogance is absolutely useless, and it is a fine way to piss off your fellow TASers. Beside, claiming perfection is the EPITOME of pride.
#4 - Do not become emotionally attached to your work. It's just a fucking game. If someone beats you to the punch, don't cry about it.
I am sure there are more things, but I forgot them. The bottom line is that you should not make movies just to have your name attached to the game or to increase your status. Make the runs for the simple fact that it is fun, challenging, and looks awesome when played back in real time.
I might have some pride for finishing a TAS because I'm a lazy bastard, but I could care less if someone beats me to something or obsoletes my work. I was happy when Cardboard bested my CotM TAS because I love seeing my favorite games destroyed as much as possible. Likewise, zidanax is working on obsoleting my Actraiser run which makes me happy as it's very improvable.
It's all about the games I say. Do it for the games, for entertainment for yourself and others, but don't do it so you can have your name on a site. I mean, what does it matter? You won't get chicks for having your name all over this site.
TAS Nerd: Hey baby, wanna have some fun?
Chick: Get lost.
TAS Nerd: But I have 3 starred movies from tasvideos.org!
*Chick walks away*
TAS Nerd: Damn it! Well, atleast I made a save state and can try that again!
#1 - Do not keep secrets. People who keep secrets are playing for pride or ego. Keeping secrets just so your run will be better than someone else's when you are done is just foolish and counterproductive. All information should be shared with the community in order to produce the best possible movie, regardless of author.
#2 - ENJOY SEEING YOUR MOVIES OBSOLETED. How many people here say that? not very many at all. I enjoy TASes because they push the game to the limit. If someone manages to improve upon a game that I really like, then this is a good thing. There is no reason to get angry. If you are so full of pride that you fear seeing your runs obsoleted, that is just sad.
#3 - Never make claims of how good you are, or how perfect your run is. Arrogance is absolutely useless, and it is a fine way to piss off your fellow TASers. Beside, claiming perfection is the EPITOME of pride.
#4 - Do not become emotionally attached to your work. It's just a fucking game. If someone beats you to the punch, don't cry about it.
I am sure there are more things, but I forgot them. The bottom line is that you should not make movies just to have your name attached to the game or to increase your status. Make the runs for the simple fact that it is fun, challenging, and looks awesome when played back in real time.
Quoted for truth, although number 4 is perhaps misstated a bit.
It's fine to become emotionally attached to your TAS, but if someone beats you to the punch, (1) it's a good thing, as it shows that you've made good game choice, and (2) it just means that, if you still want to be surprising, you need to find a different way to do some things.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Although I mostly agree with the things Hero said above, I would like to discuss them a bit.
hero of the day wrote:
#1 - Do not keep secrets. People who keep secrets are playing for pride or ego. Keeping secrets just so your run will be better than someone else's when you are done is just foolish and counterproductive. All information should be shared with the community in order to produce the best possible movie, regardless of author.
It only makes sense between players who actually need the indepth data, but not always so when it comes to watchers (at least until the movie is released). For instance, as a watcher, I like surprises and don't see much reason in spoiling the singular/local techs beforehand, since it makes a run more predictable (and when it comes to nth generation improvements, they already get pretty predictable by that point). WIPs are a bit different in this respect, since they are integral, and I, as a watcher, still have a chance of both seeing things in order, rather than knowing about them beforehand, and, as a player, incorporate them in my movie or suggest improvements. Generic techs are also different, since there can be numerous applications the viewers wouldn't have an idea about (the shortest charge goes here).
hero of the day wrote:
#2 - ENJOY SEEING YOUR MOVIES OBSOLETED. How many people here say that? not very many at all. I enjoy TASes because they push the game to the limit. If someone manages to improve upon a game that I really like, then this is a good thing. There is no reason to get angry. If you are so full of pride that you fear seeing your runs obsoleted, that is just sad.
I agree. The only thing I would like to point out, though, is stylistics. A popular example people know well is JXQ's Crocomire fight. Normally a boring event, it's looks hilarious in his movie. Accepting a run that will be faster, but won't contain such artistic goodness, as an improvement wouldn't be too easy for me. Flagitious's Big Boo battle is also a good example. I also liked the previous version of 2-p Contra III run more for that matter. Also, FODA's SM64-120.
hero of the day wrote:
#3 - Never make claims of how good you are, or how perfect your run is. Arrogance is absolutely useless, and it is a fine way to piss off your fellow TASers. Beside, claiming perfection is the EPITOME of pride.
Agreed. You've yet to match my time, though. ;P
hero of the day wrote:
#4 - Do not become emotionally attached to your work. It's just a fucking game. If someone beats you to the punch, don't cry about it.
Fully agreed. The old movie is still there, anyway.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
#1 - Do not keep secrets. People who keep secrets are playing for pride or ego. Keeping secrets just so your run will be better than someone else's when you are done is just foolish and counterproductive. All information should be shared with the community in order to produce the best possible movie, regardless of author.
It depends of your definition of "secrets". If someone do a run and tell people that he is doing that without posting WIP, is it "secrets"? Also, no matter what an author do, in the end, the movie is publicly available, so there are no "secrets".
hero of the day wrote:
#2 - ENJOY SEEING YOUR MOVIES OBSOLETED. How many people here say that? not very many at all. I enjoy TASes because they push the game to the limit. If someone manages to improve upon a game that I really like, then this is a good thing. There is no reason to get angry. If you are so full of pride that you fear seeing your runs obsoleted, that is just sad.
#4 - Do not become emotionally attached to your work. It's just a fucking game. If someone beats you to the punch, don't cry about it.
Personally, 2 and 4 mean the same. Maybe not for you but for some people a TAS is a dedicated work that needs hours and hours of work. Not just a game. It's normal that an author is emotionally attached.
hero of the day wrote:
#3 - Never make claims of how good you are, or how perfect your run is. Arrogance is absolutely useless, and it is a fine way to piss off your fellow TASers. Beside, claiming perfection is the EPITOME of pride.
While it may true, I never understand that. We are aiming for perfection. So are you telling me it's impossible? If yes, then we should aim for something else. What's the point to try reaching a goal that is impossible to reach?
Also, another question, what is the problem that someone do a movie for ego or not? If the movie is good, most people don't care. In fact, I always find it to be a lame excuse to reject a movie. Imo, that's ego doing that.
While it may true, I never understand that. We are aiming for perfection. So are you telling me it's impossible? If yes, then we should aim for something else. What's the point to try reaching a goal that is impossible to reach?
HotD said "don't make claims of perfection", not "don't aim for perfection." Of all the people to misunderstand that *cough*SMB2*cough*
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Phil wrote:
It depends of your definition of "secrets". If someone do a run and tell people that he is doing that without posting WIP, is it "secrets"? Also, no matter what an author do, in the end, the movie is publicly available, so there are no "secrets".
Well Phil, how many runs on this site do you know can be improved? Instead of posting about the possible improvements, you are improving the runs yourself. These are what I call secrets, because the improvements are SECRET to everyone but you. Even if the run is going to be made publicly available, the information may be useful to someone else who is also working on the same run improvement at the same time.
Phil wrote:
Personally, 2 and 4 mean the same. Maybe not for you but for some people a TAS is a dedicated work that needs hours and hours of work. Not just a game. It's normal that an author is emotionally attached.
The amount of work is irrelevant. It isn't the author's game. Why wouldn't you just be happy to see a better run?
Phil wrote:
While it may true, I never understand that. We are aiming for perfection. So are you telling me it's impossible? If yes, then we should aim for something else. What's the point to try reaching a goal that is impossible to reach?
I am telling you and everyone else right now. No run will ever be perfect. I don't give a shit what anyone says. If you start throwing around words like "perfect" or "unbeatable" that will kill all motivation for another person to try and improve the run later on.
Phil wrote:
Also, another question, what is the problem that someone do a movie for ego or not? If the movie is good, most people don't care. In fact, I always find it to be a lame excuse to reject a movie. Imo, that's ego doing that.
That hasn't ever happened. It will never happen. If you wanna play for Ego, you are just stalling the progression of the site.
While it may true, I never understand that. We are aiming for perfection. So are you telling me it's impossible? If yes, then we should aim for something else. What's the point to try reaching a goal that is impossible to reach?
HotD said "don't make claims of perfection", not "don't aim for perfection." Of all the people to misunderstand that *cough*SMB2*cough*
They are related.
hero of the day wrote:
Well Phil, how many runs on this site do you know can be improved?
I can't count them. There are lot of them. Also, I didn't watched many runs lately.
hero of the day wrote:
Instead of posting about the possible improvements, you are improving the runs yourself. These are what I call secrets, because the improvements are SECRET to everyone but you. Even if the run is going to be made publicly available, the information may be useful to someone else who is also working on the same run improvement at the same time.
If I say there are improvements and that I will do a run, then there are no secrets. Also, if someone is working on it and don't tell anyone, then he is indeed "secrets". And many people know that I am open to joint effort to work on a game. So if that person want to do it on it's own, that's what I call "competition" and this breeds perfection.
hero of the day wrote:
The amount of work is irrelevant. It isn't the author's game. Why wouldn't you just be happy to see a better run?
I didn't said it's someone's game but that after much effort, it's normal he is proud of his movie.
hero of the day wrote:
I am telling you and everyone else right now. No run will ever be perfect.
I don't agree but in many games, unfortunately, I admit it is true. Btw, you didn't answer my question. What is our goal if we can't reach perfection?
hero of the day wrote:
That hasn't ever happened. It will never happen. If you wanna play for Ego, you are just stalling the progression of the site.
It has already happened. As for me, ego of some people doesn't affect me. If I want to work on a movie, I will. In fact, competition always produce good movies.
Edit: Also this is in contradiction...
hero of the day wrote:
Instead of posting about the possible improvements, you are improving the runs yourself. These are what I call secrets, because the improvements are SECRET to everyone but you. Even if the run is going to be made publicly available, the information may be useful to someone else who is also working on the same run improvement at the same time.
...with
hero of the day wrote:
The amount of work is irrelevant. It isn't the author's game. Why wouldn't you just be happy to see a better run?
I agree that competition makes good movies. Competition doesn't mean "don't post your movie, as it is MY movie!" which is why pride was brought up in the first place.
Sharing information makes sense in a collaborative effort. Not sharing that information when no competition is going on doesn't make sense.
Phil wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
I am telling you and everyone else right now. No run will ever be perfect.
I don't agree but in many games, unfortunately, I admit it is true. Btw, you didn't answer my question. What is our goal if we can't reach perfection?
One problem I've always had with some members here is that they are quick to point out that they know an improvement, and then refuse to elaborate. No, Phil isn't the only one I'm talking about, but he has been guilty of it on several occasions.
If the goal is not to share the improvement with the community, the only thing left justifying this action is selfish pride of one person trying to feel better than the other (or perhaps they are just lying). Otherwise, they would keep the improvement to themselves and possibly work on an improved run. The behavior is juvenile and egotistical in any case.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Instead of posting about the possible improvements, you are improving the runs yourself. These are what I call secrets, because the improvements are SECRET to everyone but you. Even if the run is going to be made publicly available, the information may be useful to someone else who is also working on the same run improvement at the same time.
I think if you know an improvement to your run, and you intend to improve the movie yourself, there is nothing wrong with not telling everyone about the improvement. The improvement might give people a pleasant surprise when they see a new submission all of a sudden. Seeing new stuff in a finished run mostly gives a bigger inpact than seeing it in a movie which only shows the trick. If someone else is working on the run, you should of course mention you are also working on it. It will be obvious that you know some kind of improvement, and whether that person wants to wait with continuing working on it, or continue to work on it is up to him. Whether the holder of the old run wants to share his new trick is also up to him. The other person will eventually see it anyway, and if he still thinks he can do better, he can just try to improve that new movie.
hero of the day wrote:
The amount of work is irrelevant. It isn't the author's game. Why wouldn't you just be happy to see a better run?
The amount of work does matter. I totally agree that it's not your game... but it is your movie. If you spend a lot of time on something, and you produce something good, I see no reason why not to be proud of it, and becoming a little attached to your run is also only natural. I agree that making a run to get a higher 'status' is rather dull, since that's pretty arbitrary... but I don't see anything wrong with having joy over the fact that people enjoy your movie, or even praise you.
hero of the day wrote:
If you start throwing around words like "perfect" or "unbeatable" that will kill all motivation for another person to try and improve the run later on.
Hehe, I don't know why people think so heavy about this. I wouldn't say myself that my run is perfect, but if someone want to say it about his run, I don't have a problem with it. It would more likely motivate me to prove him wrong than kill motivation.
hero of the day wrote:
If you wanna play for Ego, you are just stalling the progression of the site.
As I said, I don't think it's a good idea to play for what is here defined as 'ego'. It will only let you down some day. But if someone is playing for ego, and produces good movies with it, then let him do so.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 256
Location: United States of America
I think a lot of good points were made here. I'll just offer my proposed definition of a "pride movie" as it relates to this site:
A pride movie is a tool-assisted speedrun created for ego or for "showing off" that is irreparably lacking fundamental qualities of a publication-worthy production.
"Irreparably" refers to being able to make a "fix" within the scope of the original submission, not within the global scope of the game. For example, the one-lap MK64 run that was recently rejected falls into this category, because it will never be a publication-worthy movie no matter how many improvements the author makes to that one lap.
Of course, there are many "fundamental qualities" required for publication, like fastest time, technical quality, completion of the game, and you can probably think of more. Also, no definition of a pride movie is going to make any argument go away, because nobody's going to admit that their submission is a pride movie.
The idea of "ego" or "showing off" is fundamental to the idea of a pride movie. Someone could make an unacceptable movie by simply not understanding the purpose of the site, like the full-speed, no rerecords submissions that occassionally pop up. Rather than being pride movies, those are simply unacceptable submissions. Needless to say, the accusation that one has submitted a pride movie should not be thrown around lightly.
This is of course just a suggestion, and not by any means a "pride suggestion". : ) Criticism is always welcome.
If I say there are improvements and that I will do a run, then there are no secrets. Also, if someone is working on it and don't tell anyone, then he is indeed "secrets". And many people know that I am open to joint effort to work on a game. So if that person want to do it on it's own, that's what I call "competition" and this breeds perfection.
Note: The word "you" in the following post does not refer to Phil. Instead, it refers to any person who matches the description in the first sentence.
When a poster says that there are possible improvements, but not explaining what they are is just as useful as keeping it secret that there are possible improvements. Unless you explain how to perform the improvements, noone will be able to find them except you, so the improvements are still secret, unless you reveal the methods when asked.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
