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Posted: 4/2/2007 3:28 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I never tried to piece a map together, but it may be very helpful in this case. I first played the cave in the light in order to get a set route, because I think there are a couple different directions that pan can take. After I knew the route, I just played it out. This level took me the longest time to complete, I am sure you can gain quite a few frames it it still.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/2/2007 3:31 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
I'm not sure how the darkness works on the game, but Backspace is default for toggling some type of graphic clipping, and I think 9 is default for transparency toggling. Give them a shot to see if they help anything.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 4/2/2007 3:36 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
@hero of the day: OK, thanks. Yeah, I was going to plan the route before really TASing the level. But I think I'll attempt to composite a map of the level. @stickyman05: I'll mess around with your idea and see if I could get something like that to work that saves time.
Posted: 4/2/2007 8:56 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
zidanax wrote:
@stickyman05: I'll mess around with your idea and see if I could get something like that to work that saves time.
From just playing around with the idea in normal gameplay, I found it difficult to quickly change my facing direction, however my tests did prove Pan always moves the opposite direction he is facing... but as I said, it was difficult to change direction quickly as well as keep your momentum going (granted, the hit basically stops your forward momentum anyways @_@) EDIT: Basically, I wrote a whole paragraph to say "Will it save any time?" Pz all.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/3/2007 1:44 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I didn't notice before that you can still kind of tell where the ground is in Level 8: when the will o' the wisp goes offscreen, the ground changes to pitch black, while the corridors still have a cave-like background over them. Still, a map would probably help. @JXQ:I definitely don't want to disable BG 1, because it has that cave-like background. Disabling BG 2 doesn't seem to do anything noticeable. Disabling BG 3 just gets rid of the piece of parchment or whatever it is at the top of the screen. No noticeable effect when BG 4 is disabled. Just in case, I tried disabling sprites, doesn't help. Disabling transparency doesn't help, nor does disabling graphics clipping. @stickyman05: I messed around some with your suggestion, and I got the same result: Peter Pan will only move forward if hit while facing backwards. I suppose sliding backwards might work too, but I'm not sure why I would want to do that here. However, I've managed to get Peter Pan hit facing backwards only 2 frames slower than if he was running forward, so I was able to save some frames going up to the next pit. I'll play around with it some more and see if I can squeeze any more frames out. Thanks for the suggestion, stickyman05! At some point, I'll put up a 2nd version of the level 6 WIP with the new strategy. I might also play around some more with the boss fight and see if I can find any way to save more time. This is because the second time the balloons came out in my run, they came out differently than in hero of the day's run. Perhaps I could do some sort of luck manipulation of how the balloons come out to save even more time? Anyways, because of this further work on level 6 (and because spring term just started here), I probably won't release a level 7 WIP today.
Posted: 4/3/2007 7:06 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, the 2nd WIP of level 6. -Along with getting moved right by the hit from the shield pirate, I experimented more with when to jump over the next pirate, and ended up saving 15 frames total. -I experimented with how to fight the boss, but didn't manage to find any quicker ways to fight the boss. In fact, for some reason, I kept losing a frame on the second hit compared to my first attempt, so I had to do some movie splicing. For some reason, the resulting movie was desyncing just before Peter Pan should hit the second balloon, so I had to redo that part. That's okay, though, because the important part for getting back that frame appears to be the setup prior to hitting the second balloon. The resulting movie doesn't desync for me, but please tell me if it does for you. The WIP is here
Posted: 4/3/2007 10:59 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
Synced perfectly for me.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/4/2007 8:40 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, a WIP of Level 7. - I actually did save some frames apart from the 31 frames saved as a result of the tally trick: I saved 5 frames coming up to the point where Peter Pan does his end pose. Now onto Level 8. This one could take a while, since I hope to put together pictures of different parts of the level when they're lit into a map of the level. EDIT: And for some reason, I lost one frame in the map before Level 7 starts, so the total improvement is 35 frames. The WIP is here
Posted: 4/4/2007 7:56 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
I like your level 7, especially since it is difficult to quickly maneuver Pan (due to the game's programming) thus making it difficult to keep a person entertained. I, however, was entertained by your arial (sp?) acrobatics. Is there a reason you didnt grab the sword? Not being too familiar with the game, I didnt know if an extra "You have the golden sword!" bonus would come up at the end of the level (thus losing frames) or if all movement, including background scrolling, would cease as Pan shoved the "weapon upgrade" into the air for a couple hundred frames. All in all, excellent TASing, I am loving your progress and can't wait to see the completed work!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/4/2007 10:40 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Thanks for pointing that out, stickyman05. I think I skipped the golden sword as a sort of "knee-jerk" reaction. As you've probably noticed, I try to have my character at the minimum level of life (no leaves) at the end of each level if I don't lose too much time as a result. If you have the golden sword and get hit, you'll lose the sword but not lose a life, so then I have to get hit two more times instead of just two times. For some reason, I forgot that I had been hit twice already when I came up to the golden sword in level 7, so I instinctively bypassed the golden sword. But maybe it won't cause any delay since I have no leaves at that point. The golden sword may even be helpful in level 8, as it was in level 2. So I'll see if there's any sort of delay at the score tally screen as a result of picking up the golden sword.
Posted: 4/4/2007 11:58 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
I actually meant to edit my other post earlier, but my Ipod went emo on me >_> As far as I could tell, the sword didnt change the score tally at all... there is nothing added under the "Life" or "Fly" tally, so I would assume the sword doesn't affect the score at all (unless the stage clear bonus is upped a bit from getting the "secret" sword) Also, picking up the sword does not replenish health, so you are still not gonna get any health bonus' at the end.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/5/2007 2:06 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Another WIP of Level 7. I now get the golden sword, because I don't lose any frames as a result. The WIP is here
Posted: 4/5/2007 7:59 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, I've started compositing images for the level 8 map. Here's my current progress: http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/903/hooktestjs0.png At some point I'll try to find as many of the hidden passages as possible and label them on the map. Looks like I'm about a third of the way through the level. Also played through the level, it's quite a pain to go through in real time!
Posted: 4/5/2007 8:36 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
Wow, that looks a helluva lot better than my pitiful attempt :) I am really torn about which branch is faster... but i think falling would probably be better than Pan's pitiful running, thus leading me to think that the left path is the better of the two. But, I may just be talking out of my arse ;)
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/6/2007 5:52 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Composite image (without markings for secret passages) complete! http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/383/hooktestuu1.png The white areas are where I couldn't reach to take a screenshot.
Posted: 4/7/2007 4:40 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I've experimented a bit with pixie dust, and it seems that using the pixie dust in the first part of the level would not make a very big difference, if any. However, I found a new trick: If you're flying, you can go through the platforms with the stalactites, both the straight and diagonal kinds. That trick alone should save an enormous amount of time, even with the time to gather pixie dust at the second pixie. EDIT: Then again, I've found a way to lessen the delay caused by gathering the pixie dust in the first section by at least 10 frames. So I think I probably can save some time with the pixie dust in the first part of the level, too.
Posted: 4/7/2007 8:06 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, I made a 1st WIP of Level 8, and the results of the flying trick, along with some other small optimizations were impressive! 944 frames saved from Level 7 fadeout to Level 8 fadeout. That brings me to almost, but not quite, 32 seconds faster than hero of the day's run up to the end of level 8. However, I just realized that while taking the alternate route through the first part of the level did save me a little time, I picked up an extra leaf. As a result, I lose 30 frames at fadeout, so it may not have been worth it to take the alternate route. I did some testing with the boss, and while it is possible to get hit by the boss and still hit him at the same time, it takes quite a while before the boss finally throws his skull again, thanks to not being far enough to the right when the boss puts itself together again. Also, I can now think of at least one more place where I might be able to tighten things up a bit. So, while I'm not exactly looking forward to it, I'm going to redo some of the level and try to squeeze out more frames. Regardless, here is my first attempt for those who are interested.
Posted: 4/7/2007 8:15 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
dysnced around 37,000. Until that point, it looked awesome!
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/7/2007 9:56 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Hmm, strange, it doesn't desync for me. Oh well, I'll be working on new version as I said. Hopefully that one won't desync for other people.
Posted: 4/8/2007 3:37 AM
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juef
He/Him
Player (154)
Joined: 1/29/2007
Posts: 208
Location: Québec, Canada
Works for me. I really enjoy this run so far!
Posted: 4/8/2007 9:15 AM
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bkDJ
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
didn't desync here. That extra health will mean slower countdowns in all future levels where you can't hurt yourself 3 times without losing time. Have you tested to see if maybe not hurting yourself in the cave level will perhaps save you time in the next level since you'll still have the projectile sword?
Posted: 4/8/2007 6:25 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Another WIP of level 8 -I manged to shave some time off the non-extra-leaf route, so I decided to take that route. Still barely slower than taking the other route when the savings at the end of the level are taken into account, but as bkDJ mentioned, that third leaf would carry over into the following levels. - I tried this time to jump before entering pits so that by the time I was over them, I would be falling faster than if I'd simply run off the ledge. This saves quite a bit of time. -Greater precision in the boss fight, -12 frames saved at the tally screen. -Most of my flying using the pixie dust from the first collection point is done in the next corridor down from before, as the time savings are greater. @bkDJ: I wouldn't want to get hit in the cave level anyhow, as it would, of course, slow down my progress in the level. And getting hit by the boss while hitting him would cause the next hit to take long enough as to nullify time savings at the tally screen. I haven't tested whether or not the golden sword would save time in the next 2 levels, but it might, because there are some places in the next 2 levels where a large number of enemies are onscreen. There was a similar situation at one point at level 2, and I think I may have been experiencing some slight lag, because my best attempt was not the one with the minimum of jumps and attacks. Rather, my best attempt was the one that cleared the enemies off the screen fairly quickly, taking advantage of the golden sword's fireball. So there may be, in certain parts in the next 2 levels, lag that could be minimized with good usage of the golden sword. In total, 176 frames saved from the previous WIP. The WIP is here
Posted: 4/8/2007 7:17 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Played back perfectly. I must have been using an old save state. Everything looked so good, you seem to get through the cave in no time at all. This run will destroy my time when it is done :)
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/8/2007 7:29 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
At some point, I'll start on level 9. Hopefully, levels 9 and 10 will be easier to TAS, because: 1. I'm not in the dark anymore! I mean, I pretty much know level 8 by heart now, but seeing what I'm doing should make things easier anyways. 2. Both levels 9 and 10 have various rooms, which very neatly divides the levels into smaller segments, making it easier to "divide and conquer" (is that the correct usage of the phrase?). I've been dividing the other levels into segments, of course, but sometimes it's hard to divide levels into segments that are comparable despite strategy changes.
Posted: 4/9/2007 3:48 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Level 9 WIP -Small optimizations in the level -Much faster boss fight. Most of the frames saved, by far, come from the quicker boss fight. -In total 349 frames saved in level 9, bringing me to just over 40 seconds saved from the previous run, up to the end of level 9. The WIP is here
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