Fredrik:
It doesn't.
I would really recommend to put the low% run which skips all bosses, into a different category, such as "skips all bosses", or "broken run", or "glitched version", even if this 10% no boss run would be faster than the legit any%. Although it's stunning, fast and great, it abuses save, death, and reload, which is just too much to make it a perfectly legit run. It should be compareable to the Zelda - A Link to the Past glitched in 4 min run, which also has its own category. Also the 4 main bosses and especially Mother Brain are one of the highlights in Super Metroid, so by skipping them, the run would just miss too much, and in first place entertainment.
And I'm a bit confused: Didn't you, moozooh, want to make this broken low% TAS? Or will you stick with the legit low% you planned all the time so far?
One thing is for sure, if hero "light-speed HQ-TASer" of the day decides to make this run, it will be finished too quickly, so everybody who possibly planned to work on this run should cancel it and support him instead. The moozooh-quality of this version would easily take a couple of months / years, so maybe it should be done as a 2nd version, in case new discoveries of this still very new run will be found after the 1st version is already finished.
Tonski:
Didn't continue the RBO yet. MetroidElitest, SMR-any% and other stuff were in the way. ;-)
I'm not saying the 10% route should compete in the same category as classical any% runs. But if the game can be completed quicker with Kejardon's method than the traditional way, I do think it should have a category of its own, just to find out the absolute limit of the game. But the classical route is indeed more fun to watch and feels more like being the "real thing". In other words, I think we agree Saturn :)
I'm waiting for the RBO as well, by the way.
if we're going to have a separate category for ultraglitched runs, it seems to me that the only (or main) other category should be for completely clean runs. after all, it was mostly a matter of chance that some bugs got fixed and others didnt before release, and since the bugs werent really supposed to be part of the game at all, it seems rather arbitrary to exploit the ones that just happened to make it through.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
hmm, well I know that the 10% would lead to a much faster time than an any% run. There is one problem though. I think that if ZSNES was used, the murder/space/time beam could be used to make an ever shorter movie. So it wouldn't really make sense to use the 10% run as a shortest glitch abusing run. Also, since the 10% run is not the lowest possible percentage, it fails to meet any single one standard.
-it isn't the shortest movie possible
-it isn't the lowest % possible
-space/time route can avoid all bosses too
Nabbing Plasma underwater while suitless is going to take half an hour, I think. It's possible, but it's really retarded.
Also, to answer Saturn's question: I'll stick with a proper 14% run. I know it's not the lowest percent possible (just as proper any% is far from being fastest possible), but at least it will be cool on is own and entertaining enough to watch to live up to other recently published SM runs. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
evilchen: It's not luck manipulation, it's data manipulation. You *have* to die in that Brinstar room and reload a Tourian save to skip past Mother Brain.
Hero: I remembered yesterday that some rooms copy old rooms' BTS data to the background data, and the background data is what needs to change to allow you to skip the slope block without crystal flashing. I don't know exactly why or when it happens, or the limits of it working yet, though.
It would take a while to look through everything, and I'm too busy trying to juggle classes for college to look at it. Anyways: There's still a slim chance you *can* skip the crystal flash. It's not particularly likely though - there's a very slim area of workable data for that path. On the plus side, I already know that Dachora's room gives a bunch of good BTSes for it.
::edit::
Also, some objections to the space/time beam and various other things adding up to 0.02$...
The space/time beam glitches up the *hardware*, not just the software. Seeing as emulators are usually iffy at emulating hardware glitches, I wouldn't rely on anything except the console to verify if something actually works or not, and so far there's no known way of causing Zebes to explode on console with the space/time beam (at least, none that I've heard of).
Breaking into Tourian and skipping Mother Brain are just various software glitches.
That's not to say that I think 9% should replace 14%; the 9% run cannot work without magical secret world stuff that doesn't make any sense whatsoever to a normal player, and skips the final 'scene' of the game. But the space/time beam is, imo, far worse than the 9% run, and shouldn't itself make the 9% run not legit.
And honestly, I've always thought of NBMB as more a novelty than a serious run.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
By the way, Kejardon, can you shed some more light on the nature of space/time beam and the reasons it fucks up the game that much? How can such a simple thing do that much various effects, all of which mess up everything so badly?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
when u speak of datamanipulation can it be hex edited or something? it cant just be the brinstar room or :/?
for the console thing.. i know for 100% sure it works
well michael b. managed to make the planet explode on console (PAL) but i dont think its the version differences ..
he showed it to me live several times in different rooms thats really sick
as far as i can remember it was something like this:
michael asked me: do you think we can glitch into the escaping rooms after motherbrain?
and then we tried to enter those rooms from the long crateria shaft(and all rooms connected to it) with the space/time beam
sadly he aint up to anything in supermetroid anymore i guess :$
but hes my neighbour and i meet him sometimes so if you kej have some questions about the details i can ask him for you
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
I think it's because it's a charged power bomb (in beam form), and remember how you can only have 1 power bomb detonate at one time (I think mother brain's brain beam has some relation as well, because while a power bomb is blowing up, she doesn't fire until it's finished.), and it stays on screen causing really bad lag.
Also I'd imagine it uses a lot memory data, more than just the power's normal data.
It doesn't have any power or graphics because it wasn't intended for the game, so where can it load from.
Back to the relation with mother brain, the space-time beam causes the timer to go off, which is what mother brain is supposed to do, so maybe the murder beam has some connection with the hyper beam or the brain beam.
btw Kejardon, do you know a cheat code to silence that annoying beep noise when you have a low health
Edit: evilchen, luck manipulation is when you change a RNG outcome, data manipulation is changing the RAM to manipulate what you want
ram... hm is it possible and legitim to change somehow?:/ that would make a run much cooler!
Yeah, by doing what Kejardon did. Generally, running through certain rooms in certain order will throw some junk into memory. Whether that junk is useful and how to use it, though, requires extensive knowledge of the memory map and the game engine, which none of us except Kej possess.
Evidently, dying and returning to the main menu threw even more junk, some of which helped skipping MB.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
First off, a bit of clarification about some things that are confused way too often.
The space/time beam and the murder beam are essentially *completely unrelated*. The source of them is the same glitch (select spazer + plasma simultaneously), and they are both beams, but those are basically the *only* connection they have.
The space/time beam is considered bomb damage-type beam that can freeze and go through enemies. The murder beam is considered charged power-bomb damage-type beam that can freeze, go through enemies, and go through walls. It's usually up to the enemy to try and figure out how to react to a charged power-bomb damage-type beam. Phantoon doesn't handle that too well. XD But that has nothing at all to do with the space/time beam mucking up the game.
moozooh wrote:
By the way, Kejardon, can you shed some more light on the nature of space/time beam and the reasons it fucks up the game that much? How can such a simple thing do that much various effects, all of which mess up everything so badly?
Honestly, not much. I know that the beams use a simple index to find just about *all* their relevant data, and so when you overflow the index (which happens with any combination of plasma + spazer), the game starts pulling data and *code* from essentially random locations. What it does from there is anyone's guess. No, let me rephrase that - what it does from there, nobody can guess. >_> The only way to know would be to read the game's programming.
Beyond that, I don't much know nor care. The space/time beam was interesting to me at first, but after a while I honestly sort of got sick of it - as far as I'm concerned, using it is similar to using PAR codes. Neat for novelties, not really valid for anything else. I am still interested in the murder beam and chainsaw beam, as those are far more stable, but I've never gotten around to looking into their workings.
Chainsaw beam is all the beams except wave ice. Good for destroying beam-destroyable blocks, doesn't really do much else... so far as anyone knows right now.
Datamanipulation can be done by hex-editing... but there is no directly accessible hex-editor inside of Super Metroid you can get to without external tools. Let alone a comprehensive hex-editor.
There is an enemy debugger hidden in Super Metroid, but it's not all that great of a debugger.
There might be another room you could use to skip Mother Brain. It wouldn't be unlikely - there's a pretty good sized window of possible door transitions. But the one in Brinstar is the first I found, and convenient for the path I used, so I stopped looking. Nothing chronologically before that works - I checked from a fresh run at Ceres.
And to try and help clear up what hex-editing ram means... Your energy is a piece of ram. If you want to hex-edit that legitimately, you get hurt by an enemy or pick up an energy refill or something.
Your position is a few pieces of ram, X and Y. You edit those by moving around.
The room data is a huge chunk of ram. You edit that by entering a room transition, or shooting breakable blocks, or other small things. Usually.
Going to the title screen is also an effective way of editing the room data. That's because the room data takes up *so much* ram, that some of it is used for other things instead when no room data is currently needed. It's only with rare glitches that you're ever concerned with unconventional methods of editing ram.
Finally: No, I don't know a cheat code to silence the annoying beep noise. Yet.
90EA7F60 seems to work. Just make sure the noise is off to begin with when you put the code in.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Chainsaw Beam?? Never heard of that before. How much damage does it deal? Or does it have a similar continuity damage effect as Murder Beam?
Also I have a easier name suggestion for the "10% skip all bosses run": Since nobody else had by far a chance to discover such a complex run before, why not just name it "Kejardon run"? :-P
It's easy to understand, and for insider very informative of what type of a run this is.
All beams except ice = Chainsaw beam? I discovered this myself on console once and I've called it Air Gun. :D From what I know it doesn't deal any damage and opens doors only if your gun is almost touching it. You can hear the shooting sound but you can't see any ammunition.
Are we talking about the same beam?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Yeah, it's the same beam you found
It doesn't deal damage (well, I've never gotten it to deal damage), but it's rapid fire and can break blocks and open doors.
If anyone managed to get it to deal damage, it'd do... 150 damage, super missile type beam. No, it doesn't open red doors or green doors, I've tried.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
So is anyone doing this TAS or not? I'd really like to see how fast an optimized run could complete the game with this new trick, and it's exactly the sort of crazy glitching that I think of when I'm thinking about TAS-only stuff (which I THINK this is, at least from a speedrunning perspective).
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am not doing it because it fails to fulfill any single category, and I am busy with the any% improvement. The only other person who has shown interest is evilchen.
The run Kejardon has put up on m2k2 is doable on a console. Rather hard, yes, but doable. However, all the runs that require using horizontal bombjumping have to be done on an emulator, since that trick is a total bitch to do even with frame advance.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I am not doing it because it fails to fulfill any single category, and I am busy with the any% improvement. The only other person who has shown interest is evilchen.
I think technically it would probably fulfill shortest time if you don't allow space/time beam (which I thought wasn't going to be the case), and low% NBMB, but I understand your point and I know why you don't want to do straight low%.
moozooh wrote:
The run Kejardon has put up on m2k2 is doable on a console. Rather hard, yes, but doable. However, all the runs that require using horizontal bombjumping have to be done on an emulator, since that trick is a total bitch to do even with frame advance.
Yeah, doable, just not so much doable QUICKLY, I thought. That said, re: horizontal bombjumping, there's a trick Kejardon posted for doing it relatively easily that works for me at least 10% of the time, which probably translates to a much higher percentage for other players; I don't think it's undoable. Besides, didn't Smokey do a run that used it (yeah, I know, on an emulator, but without frame advance)?
uh, isn't there an unassisted low% using the horizontal bomb jump?
Horizontal bombjump is when you gain ~10 pixels of distance with every jump without increase in height. It's very slow and has to be very precise (consecutive jumps are nearly impossible in realtime). For crossing the missile moat, one would have to do 25—35 consecutive jumps, each having a margin of error of about 2-3 frames.
IIRC, Smokey used diagonal bombjump (which always propels you upward as well as sideward).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I was almost sure it was horizontal since you still got the missile with diagonal, unless I'm missing something (which is likely; I thought someone said there wasn't enough height?). And check out Kejardon's method; it's somewhat easier.
