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Posted: 9/5/2004 1:54 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
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Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
What other possible improvements do you have in mind?
Posted: 9/5/2004 4:13 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Truncated wrote:
What other possible improvements do you have in mind?
It seems he kills some enemies in some places, for nothing. That's the main improvement.
Posted: 9/5/2004 6:37 PM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
It seems he kills some enemies in some places, for nothing. That's the main improvement.
I didn't notice that, can you give an example?
Posted: 9/5/2004 6:48 PM
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Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
NES TAS of 2021
example
at 3:00
Posted: 9/5/2004 6:52 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Example: From beginning of level 3. Left 1, Up 2, Left 1, in this room, he kill a bat. It's a lost of time killing it since he gain nothing. Swinging your sword lose you ~13 frames. So you got 13 frames in hand to control the randomness to evite to hurt the bat while walking. You must be pretty unlucky to take more than 4 frames for not having a good random.
Posted: 9/6/2004 11:40 PM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
I'm glad I don't have to time my runs in frames...going into this much detail is just...heh...very meticulous.
Posted: 9/6/2004 11:47 PM
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Phil
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TSA wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to time my runs in frames...going into this much detail is just...heh...very meticulous.
^_^
Posted: 9/7/2004 3:25 AM
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Seppel
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 29
It's probably been said many times before, but just in case, I'll bring it up. Would going to level 8 after level 1 save any time in the matter of obtaining keys? Also, on the issue of manipulating randomness, if there's different versions of ROMs, wouldn't that make it theoretically possible to manipulate luck from the source? Get thousands of copies of the cartridge and port them all over to see which one has the best random selection seed (if it works that way at all). At that point, you would be able to plan it out way in advance and produce perfect luck without any slowdowns or lost frames, lining up every enemy as you desire. Of course, that would take probably a year at least, and it would supercede any videos done that rely on luck, ever. Funny how there's the possibility of even greater perfection.
~Seppel
Posted: 9/7/2004 4:11 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
It's probably been said many times before, but just in case, I'll bring it up. Would going to level 8 after level 1 save any time in the matter of obtaining keys? If you're talking about the magic key, getting it wastes a lot of time since you have to take a big detour to get to it.
Posted: 9/7/2004 6:12 AM
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Truncated
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>Get thousands of copies of the cartridge and port them all over to see which one has the best random selection seed (if it works that way at all). Games do not work this way.
Posted: 9/7/2004 7:29 AM
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Phil
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Location: America, Québec
Even if it works that way, no one will have the patience to do this.
Posted: 9/7/2004 5:07 PM
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Walker_Boh
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Joined: 4/16/2004
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Hehe. What a headache to test all those games ;)
/Walker Boh
Posted: 9/7/2004 5:27 PM
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Seppel
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 29
Heh, yeah. Oh well. I shall be quiet now. =3
~Seppel
Posted: 9/17/2004 7:45 PM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
I also started a LoZ speedrun, but I have very little time to work on it, and my progress is real slow, so it will take a long while before it's, if it will ever be, finished. I just completed level 3, but I don't know exactly what route I'll take, like if I should gamble two or three times. I also wonder why the current zelda fmv's use the flute twice each time.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 9/17/2004 7:55 PM
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Bob_Whoops
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Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Phil has just completed a run for this if you interested. Its for FCEU though. Sleepz uses the flute twice because that warps you to a different dungeon.
Posted: 9/17/2004 10:23 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
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Location: America, Québec
It's 1:26 faster than Sleepz. I'm waiting Bisqwit to support FCEU movie files to publish this movie. So be patient guys and girls.
Posted: 9/17/2004 10:25 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
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Location: Arzareth
Phil wrote:
It's 1:26 faster than Sleepz. I'm waiting Bisqwit to support FCEU movie files to publish this movie. So be patient guys and girls.
And I'm waiting for a patch that works better than the last one I tried: http://forum.starmen.net/index.php?t=msg&goto=90515#msg_90515
Posted: 9/17/2004 11:32 PM
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4matsy
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498
*reads Bisqwit's post in the topic he linked to* So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well? 'Cause blip just released a version with remappable keys 5 days ago...~_^
Posted: 9/17/2004 11:33 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
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Location: America, Québec
4matsy wrote:
*reads Bisqwit's post in the topic he linked to* So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well? 'Cause blip just released a version with remappable keys 5 days ago...~_^
It is for Win32 not Linux.
Posted: 9/18/2004 1:47 AM
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4matsy
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498
The binary is, yeah I know...but there's also a source download in the thread I linked to. That can't be compiled on Linux?
Posted: 9/18/2004 1:49 AM
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Bisqwit
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4matsy wrote:
So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well?
The problem was that to playback movies, I was required to do <waves hands a lot> to get it done. I'm not accepting that. I want to just feed a filename somewhere and press a (1) key to start playing back the movie - just like in Famtasia, Snes9x and even Gens.
Posted: 9/18/2004 2:10 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
What an amazing run! Wow. A sub-26. Wow. Wow. I never thought that would be possible. I'm a bit rusty. You saved some time with the keys, but what else? I noticed you had only 1 rupee for Ganon. Did you save time on rupee collection? If all that time was saved on fighting, I wonder what the theoretical fastest time could ever be. If every action affected the game somehow... (Like, whether to shoot a sword beam in the time it takes for the tornado to pick you up or not) then there has to be a specific right set to get the theoretical fastest time. I don't think our technology allows us to do that yet. :-P
Posted: 9/18/2004 8:08 AM
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todd
Joined: 4/4/2004
Posts: 66
(somewhat off-topic reply to Ramzi): Heh. I hope we someday have the computing power to attempt to exhaust the entire "game tree" for a NES game. If I'm not mistaken, there are 256 (2^8) possible NES controller states (each of up, down, left, right, A, B, select, and start may be either pressed or unpressed). In 25 minutes, there are 25*60*60=90000 frames. So checking exhaustively for sub-25 minute solutions for Zelda would require traversing a "game tree" of size 256^90000. That's a big number :) To compare, chess's game tree complexity is a mere ~10^120. Go's is probably a few hundred digits more, but still absolutely puny compared to even one minute of NES play. I wonder if it's even possible to do 256^90000 computations without causing a universe-destroying entropy increase :) (by destroy, I mean something along the lines of making the universe a very boring place devoid of life where almost nothing happens)
Posted: 9/18/2004 8:19 AM
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NrgSpoon
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
Well, also keeping in mind that since we're going for a FLAWLESS run, a lot of those segments will be ignored due to taking damage or whatnot.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
Posted: 9/18/2004 6:04 PM
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Bob_Whoops
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Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Well, doing a full traversal of the entire game is impossible. Your math is correct, and this number is so insanely huge. I'm not an expert on this, but a good speed for a supercomputer cluster is maybe a terabyte of instructions per second. At this rate, the universe will implode (or whatever) before we are done. If our computing power doubled every day, we would never reach it. The number of possibilites that there are makes the number of particles in the univerese seem insignificant. Well, I think you get the point by now. However, I'm not saying that it can't be done. With enough pruning, it might be possible. Obviously, a game where he starts walking into a wall can instantly be discarded. Of course, there is always the possibilty that by walking into a wall for one second, it just sets up the randomness just right for the rest of the game so that everything goes perfectly. In other words, we will never see a perfect run ot this game, ever.
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