Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I still think both Raticate and Snorlax is a bad idea. Could it not be faster to glitch a high level Gyrados and delete dragon rage for surf. That'd get you through the rest of the game pretty quickly.
You can't glitch a high-level Gyarados. Not even in the Japanese version.
Fact.
However, I think Kingler might not be such a bad option. Crab Hammer, Stomp, Guillotine... good speed, awesome attack; seems like a solid package. Especially since Stomp is also a flinch attack (although, with Guillotine, why would there ever be a two hit battle?). Only drawback is that his call is not as short as Raticate or Snorlax.
Raticate seems to me a much better option than Snorlax, if from nothing else, from speed alone. Even at level 100, Snorlax would still but slower than Gyarados, who himself had many second turn attacks, losing ~150 frames for each. Raticate on the other hand is decent, has similar speed to Kingler, but unfortunately attack which is 27% less*. Also only two real attacks, Hyper Fang and Quick Attack. Hyper Fang is good, but still weaker than Stomp. And Quick Attack is no stronger than Scratch (!), although with 30pp, I can see how it could prove useful. However, a very, very short battle cry.
Keep this in mind for the Ghosts though: Raticate really only has one attack to use against Agatha, Dig. Dig is a two turn attack, which means 300+ frames extra for each ghost = 900+ frames just for using this attack. Plus, you'll also probably need to use it else where to make it to Indigo Plateau without healing. This alone is 15 seconds, which is more than your estimated 10 seconds saved from battle cry. You could alternatively teach Raticate a special attack, but with his low special, it would probably result in a 2HKO as well.
Kingler, with STAB on Crab Hammer would have a much better chance of OHKOing the ghosts. Plus, you will most likely need to teach Raticate an additional attack, which I estimate to cost ~710 frames (assuming you were already in the item menu). Plus, as mentioned above, you have the OHKO wildcard, in the case of a particularly difficult opponent.
In conclusion, I advocate Kingler over Raticate. Although, there may be other, potentially better options.
*Comparing L100 without stat experience.
Edit:
You can ignore everything I just wrote about Kingler. I wanted to make a few suggestions of potentially better options, and I've convinced myself that I've found the best. Marowak. Marowak is appealing for only one reason, but for a very, very good reason, Thrash. Thrash works like this: you send an attack once, and your pokémon attacks 3-5 times in a row without having to issue a new attack. With 20pp, you could take out just about every opponent between Cinnibar and Indigo Plateau. This would save a lot of time during battles (~40 frames per enemy after the first) and you wouldn't need to teach him another attack. Possibly not even need to save at Indigo Plateau, but I'm not yet convinced of this. And then you still have Bone Club for the ghosts. Although It attacks twice in one turn, this is still a lot faster than Dig (first, because you only have to issue it once, and second, because you opponent doesn't get to attack in the middle), and if you opponent faints after the first hit, that's it. He also knows Rage, which works exactly like Thrash, but starts out much weaker. But for many battles, it should do the job, allowing you to push Thrash through to the end. His cry is not as short as Raticate, but still shorter than Gyarados.
Seems good. I got inspired to use Snorlax by one sentence: "Imagine if Graveler has Snorlax's cry", by FractalFusion on his pokemon Gold run. This got me thinking about shorter cries and Missingno. and such. But Marowak has real potential. In case anyone's wondering, it's represented by capital R.
The Thrash improvement is better than that of cry, especially given it's for every attack rather than every battle. Confusion is a small problem, but we can manipulate it away as soon as we get it.
These are the only problems I anticipate:
1. Agatha. She's troublesome for any pokemon except Mewtwo or Alakazam, but this is the problem: How the hell do we kill Golbat? This really worries me. I suppose the best way to do it is to luck-manipulate for having Golbat and Arbok at the end of the fight, then killing them with Thrash.
2. Lance's Aerodactyl. Again, the only attack that works is Thrash, but this time it's not very effective. Still, these problems are not very large given the huge improvement (potentially) offered.
But, wow, this really hangs on the speed at which Missingno. glitch can be done. Another method involves trading. This would mean catching a Spearow as a fly slave, eventually flying to Vermillion and trading it, then teaching Farfetch'd Fly and going to Cinnabar. It seems too long to me.
These are the only problems I anticipate:
1. Agatha. She's troublesome for any pokemon except Mewtwo or Alakazam, but this is the problem: How the hell do we kill Golbat? This really worries me. I suppose the best way to do it is to luck-manipulate for having Golbat and Arbok at the end of the fight, then killing them with Thrash.
2. Lance's Aerodactyl. Again, the only attack that works is Thrash, but this time it's not very effective. Still, these problems are not very large given the huge improvement (potentially) offered.
You need to learn Strength anyway... you could teach it to Marowak. That would solve the Golbat problem. Although this probably wouldn't be a great Idea because then you'd end up having to overwrite Rage, which is a great asset against weaker trainers, as it saves your Thrash PP. Plush Strength has a slow animation. Ice Beam seems like it might be good option. You wouldn't be able to teach it to Gyarados, but Bubblebeam should be enough for everything he needs it for. This would solve both the Golbat and Aerodactly problem, and the potential Rhydon problem in Veridian Gym (although, you could have used Bone Club here as well).
Chamale wrote:
But, wow, this really hangs on the speed at which Missingno. glitch can be done. Another method involves trading. This would mean catching a Spearow as a fly slave, eventually flying to Vermillion and trading it, then teaching Farfetch'd Fly and going to Cinnabar. It seems too long to me.
Just grab the Pidgey where I do in my run. This is how I would imagine this run is total:
Start - Cerulean: Similar to existing run.
Route to Bill's: Fight the Jr. Trainer instead of the avoidable Hiker (saving 2 Bubblebeams).
Bill's - SS Anne: Similar to existing run.
SS Anne: Use Bubblebeam on Rival's Pidgeotto (instead of Hydro Pump).
SS Anne - Celedon: Similar to existing run.
Celedon: Pick up Poké Doll and Ice Beam, but don't teach Ice Beam to Gyarados.
Celedon - Fuschia: Skip the Gym in Celedon, and come back later with Marowak.
Fuschia: Teach both Surf and Strength to Gyarados upon entering the Gym (but *only* if Strength results in OHKOs against the Drowzees. If not, keep Bite and teach the HMs after the Gym). Manipulate a Explosion miss from the Weezing (this was a mistake in my run).
Fushia - Cinnibar. Fly to Pallet, Surf to Cinnibar. Enter the Pokémon Mansion and get the Secret Key. Escape Rope out. Fly to Veridian and Talk with the Old Man. Fly to Cinnibar and Catch Marowak. Fight in the Cinnibar Gym while you're there.
Cinnibar - Saffron: Do Celedon Gym, Office Building and Saffron Gym. Probably the Gym before the Office Building, but the other way may prove faster.
Saffron - Indigo: Similar to existing run, but don't heal if you don't need to :)
Uh, not to sound naive but...I don't suppose you could glitch a Mewtwo, could you?
You sure could. However, the only attack it would know would be Psychic, which only has 10pp. This would make it a bad option, because you'd need to teach it several attacks in order to be able to finish the game. Plus, because there is no Thrash TM, this would be inherently slower than using Marowak.
I've started to work on this run. I'm 5150 frames (1:26) along, but despite obsessively frame-optimizing every single thing, it's currently 44 frames slower than Primo's run. This is because I named myself "AIR" and named the rival "AL". The name "AIR" is 1 frame off perfect optimization, and it's a word, so I used it. The name "AL" is the fastest name to input (and a shortening of my name) and will save 150-ish frames, through the fact that it is 2 frames shorter. It takes 80 frames to input, but it is very worthwhile.
How far along should I be before posting a WIP?
The name "AL" is the fastest name to input (and a shortening of my name) and will save 150-ish frames, through the fact that it is 2 frames shorter. It takes 80 frames to input, but it is very worthwhile.
According to my calculations, this will only save ~65 frames, whereas a one character name would save ~142. Another choice would be to use Pokémon Blue, and name the rival Ash, which would save 77 frames (probably my choice of preference).
Chamale wrote:
How far along should I be before posting a WIP?
In general, there is no such thing as too frequently. In fact, it often happens that a runner waits quite a while before posting, and then someone points out a major mistake early on. Although in your case, I would probably wait until after you finish the first battle.
I really do hate to change ROMs for a run... I mean, if that were acceptable, then the Mario Bros. record would be about 2 minutes shorter. Plus the only Pokemon Blue ROM I've found is called Pokemon Blue.gb, so it's not very trustworthy.
About AL: I meant that it will save 150 frames, despite costing 80 frames, which puts my estimate at 70-ish, which is close to 65.
On a final note, I think the name ASH for the rival is very defeatist, because it implies that you are not the "good guy". An ambiguous name like AL removes any "karma" about names. I mean, with the name ASH, you may as well name the player GARY, which also works. But I choose ambiguous names.
On another note, I've spent 1000 rerecords luck-manipulating for Charmander's stats. The best I've gotten is D4F9. Judging by the fact that Charmander has the second DV very low in your run, I figure that it's for defense or HP, but what do the other 3 mean, exactly? Will having a 4th DV of 9 result in any battles being non-optimized relative to FFFF DVs?
Nah, I think this site considers Red and Blue to be the same game. If one appears to have a speed advantage over the other, that's the one that gets chosen.
Chamale wrote:
I really do hate to change ROMs for a run... I mean, if that were acceptable, then the Mario Bros. record would be about 2 minutes shorter.
Keep in mind that the controversy over the Super Mario Bros. run is not so much which ROM is most official, but whether beating some glitch levels that send you to the title screen counts as beating the whole game.
Chamale wrote:
On a final note, I think the name ASH for the rival is very defeatist, because it implies that you are not the "good guy".
Why? Are you going to let the dumb English dub of the TV show influence you?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
On a final note, I think the name ASH for the rival is very defeatist, because it implies that you are not the "good guy". An ambiguous name like AL removes any "karma" about names.
I had no problem wanting to beat Red in Pokemon Gold. I really don't care about implications from the TV show; they mean nothing to me.
I mean, with the name ASH, you may as well name the player GARY, which also works. But I choose ambiguous names.
This would actually save time. Stylistic choices give the run character, however, so I don't think that your decision is a bad one.
Chamale wrote:
On another note, I've spent 1000 rerecords luck-manipulating for Charmander's stats. The best I've gotten is D4F9.
How are you attempting to do this? Are you systematically searching? If I recall, the last button press before the stats are rolled is when you enter a new name.
Chamale wrote:
Judging by the fact that Charmander has the second DV very low in your run, I figure that it's for defense or HP, but what do the other 3 mean, exactly? Will having a 4th DV of 9 result in any battles being non-optimized relative to FFFF DVs?
In order, the DV values represent Attack, Defense, Speed, and Special. HP is derived from the other four. It's not necessary to roll a perfect Charmander, as you won't be using him long enough for a small variance to make any difference. Minimum DVs I would recommend would be D0BD. Gyarados, on the otherhand, will need at least F0DF (although I had speed problems with Gyarados, it wasn't until the very end, so D should probably be ok. Ideally, you would roll F0FF).
You mention in your submission text that you would get 8 escape ropes in your run if you the money. Where would you use this 8th rope? I had an idea for a new route. After pewter city, there is a Youngster facing downwards. He has 4 pokemon. There is also a Lass with 2 pokemon. However, if you try to sneak behind this youngster the lass sees you too soon and you either have to fight the youngster or walk back to a building and go in. However, this is my idea:
Don't go to the mart immediately, fight the Lass at that junction, go to the mart and get stuff.
This has 2 potential ramifications:
1. Having 8 ecape ropes - Yes, there will be enough money.
2. Charmander staying at level 15, and not trying to evolve - This, also, would work. He'l wind up something like 20 EXP short of level 16.
You mention in your submission text that you would get 8 escape ropes in your run if you the money. Where would you use this 8th rope?
Saffron Gym. You can use and Escape Rope to exit instead of having to take the telporters. If I recall correctly, this is only a minimal gain though, something like ~400 frames.
Chamale wrote:
I had an idea for a new route. After pewter city, there is a Youngster facing downwards. He has 4 pokemon. There is also a Lass with 2 pokemon. However, if you try to sneak behind this youngster the lass sees you too soon and you either have to fight the youngster or walk back to a building and go in. However, this is my idea:
Don't go to the mart immediately, fight the Lass at that junction, go to the mart and get stuff.
This has 2 potential ramifications:
1. Having 8 ecape ropes
2. Charmander staying at level 15, and not trying to evolve.
I'll test these, and tell you the results.
I guess the question is if walking back to the Mart and to the Lass again is quicker than the time it takes to Cancel evolve, and defeat two pokémon. My instinct would say that it would be faster to defeat the Bug Catcher with four pokémon, but I couldn't be certain.
It takes about 1750 frames to go back and forth - 29 seconds. Subtract 400 frames for the gym and 400 frames for the evolution, you have to save 950 frames from the battle. Plausible...
EDIT: You also have the "doooo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-dooooo" when he levels up. I looked at the "surplus" 2 pokemon from the battle and the level-up noise at the same time, and found it saved 1200 frames. Assuming the maximum gain from this strategy, we still save only around 250 frames. But it's a legitimate 4-second gain, and I always think it's interesting in an RPG TAS where the character walks right past something and then goes back later.
EDIT AGAIN: I've been screwing around with timings, so I have some figures:
Level up noise: 3 seconds. Marowak could cut off 18 of these. That's 54 seconds.
Not selecting an attack: 1/3 of a second. Probably around 60 with Marowak. That's 20 seconds.
2HKO: Time not known, but even a tiny figure like 2 is enough to make it worthwhile to catch Marowak.
Okay, here's a weird idea: Many people warn that turning off while saving can mess up the save file. So, save ASAP and use the A+B+select+start reset while it says "saving... DON'T TURN OFF THE POWER". If we reset at the right moment, it might result in teleporting to the Hall of Fame, or getting a level 100 marowak, etc...
Anyway, say it doesn't work. Ho hum.
I've been doing some tests with Marowak. Thrash is so effective that he can beat Celadon Gym, Cinnabar Gym, Saffron Gym, the Silph Building, Rival, Rival, Elite Four, and Rival, without having to heal at Pokemon centers. Every pokemon up to the Elite Four can be beaten with Thrash without a critical hit, and with Marowak going first, except:
Sabrina's Alakazam (Goes second)
Rival's Alakazam (Goes second)
and a couple Rhyhorns (Bonemerang or Ice Beam).
I've e-mailed Nintendo and Pokemon.com with this letter:
As you might know, there are several people at tasvideos.org trying to use computer programs to play the Pokemon red/blue games as fast as possible. Our best movie so far can be seen at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2812912828267940831&q=pokemon+red+speedrun
These movies are made by extensively planning the route, and then one person starts to work on playing, with every button pressed at the first possible moment and random button presses used for extreme good luck, allowing no pokemon to be seen except when necessary and all attacks to do maximum damage. The process involves pressing random buttons, retrying over and over until the desired result is achieved. If you could e-mail me the random number generators used in pokemon Red and how they are applied, it would be extremely helpful.
Please and thank you, Alex Lamoureux.
So, save ASAP and use the A+B+select+start reset while it says "saving... DON'T TURN OFF THE POWER".
Anyway, say it doesn't work. Ho hum.
It doesn't work.
At least not with A+B+select+start, since it is a soft reset code and the game prevents you from soft resetting during saving. You will have to get nitsuja to implement recording a hard reset.
Chamale wrote:
I've e-mailed Nintendo and Pokemon.com with this letter:
(TAS stuff)
They don't care.
Anyone can call me wrong, but don't expect any response from them. You have a better chance requesting to a hacker of the first-generation Pokemon games.
By the way, the Marowak idea sounds good. Just make sure you can catch the Marowak in the first place (I don't know when that "Pokeball missed" comes up).
The player's name is going to be AIR, meaning that after setting up Cinnabar coast, the wild Pokemon table will consist of level 136 Marowak, level 80 and 0 'M (the name has a few more characters than that, but they aren't letters), and uninteresting Pokemon. Obviously the battle will be manipulated to be the Marowak. After it's caught, Marowak will do the remainder of the game's fighting, with the first battle resetting its level to 100 where it will remain for the rest of the game.
