Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
So, after almost a year of testing, I started working on this again. I'm still stuck on Belth, for the most part. Only about 55 seconds worth of input is done so far, since the Lance is a terrible weapon to start with. I keep finding myself unable to attack after jumping once in a while, so I've been working to avoid this bug (impossible to always avoid it, but it's not always the slowest option) while trying to finish the fight. I will post what I have in about 5 hours, so that I can get some feedback. Or I will post it right now. Once Belth2 is dead and that longass cutscene is over with, I should be able to start hammering out work very quickly.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Joined: 12/16/2006
Posts: 5
These 55 seconds look nice from what one can see but it might be that you have to do most of it again, because as far as i know it's possible that he never does his wave attack which would save some frames...
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, I would only have to manipulate a little bit of Belth2, you mean?
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Joined: 12/16/2006
Posts: 5
Yup I think so but I'm really not sure if it can happy the way you got to him. I saw him not doing the wave spell when I was working on my speedrun video but I played from the first level on. Would surprise me if this makes a difference. I rather think it's where you are and what you do, maybe distance from him or sth like that. You should keep in mind that they have made so that you can fight him without getting hit without the ability to save/load states.
Former player
Joined: 9/20/2006
Posts: 287
Location: Singapore
Bump... any progress since then? Chanced upon this Jap Blog which links to many TAS/Speedrun videos hosted online already (quite a number of them are from here too). Anyway, I saw this very interesting link: SGnG completed in 35m40s. I haven't managed to watch it yet (cos the stupid AmebaVision refuses to play the video stream but only plays the audio), but if it is a full completion without cheat codes, it can well set a new benchmark for the people working on this run. PS: I have absolutely no idea who made the run... maybe someone who can read Jap can shed some light on the topic. EDIT: Found the run hosted in parts on google videos. According to the description, the author plays through both loops! Going to watch it now to see for myself
Truncated wrote:
Truncated is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. -- xoinx
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Progress report: I handed the run to Brushy about 2 weeks ago. A few days later he “retired” from running. Nothing has changed, aside from an extra 10 seconds of input. I hate manipulating boss movesets...
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Experienced player (591)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Weapons The following is adapted from p.18 of "super NES player's guide" (1992)
Lance: 6,10 ; 9,10 Dagger: 4,6 ; 7,10 Crossbow: 3,4 ; 6,9 (per bolt) Torch: 7,8 ; 10,10 Scythe: 6,9 ; 9,10 Axe: 6,9 ; 9,10 Tri-Blade: 6,9 ; 9,10
^ I wanted to make that a table but I don't know how. The left pair is with steel or worse, and the right pair with bronze or better. The first number in the pair is normal damage and the second is if you heave the weapon on the way up during the second jump of a doublejump. I tested some of the weapons and the numbers check out. I also noticed that the gold armor torch flames (indirect hit) do 3 dmg/frame. Missing is the bracelet weapon. I have noticed it does more damage at close range, and if you lose your armor it has less range. Other factors regarding weapon choice are the speed/range, the number of shots, and whether the shot penetrates soft targets. Also, the bracelet appears only after a really long fairy animation so only pick it up once. Chests Also in the guide is a sequence of what pops out of chests (magician, weapon, armor, etc) which depends on what arthur's current armor is. This means that in order to get an item you must make a certain number of chests appear. (The sequence increments whether or not you open the chest.) The type of weapon you get can be manipulated but some seem to be rarer. The guide mentions that the bracelet appears only when you have the sun shield (in the second quest), which is consistent with my memory of this game. Chests tend to appear behind you or out of the way, which will make changing weapons cost time. Magic I've tested magic damage and here are my results: Thunder (lance) 2 dmg per frame Dragon (dagger) 2 dmg per frame Seek (crossbow) none Shield (torch) 3 dmg per ~6-17 frames Tornado (scythe) 6 dmg per ~6-17 frames Lightning (axe) and Nuclear (tri-blade) untested (seem to be unavailable on the first level) Address In snes9x 1.43+v9 the HP of the boss of level 1 appears at 0x7e0a21, a3 or 62. I think the game recycles HP addresses so it depends on how many enemies you've killed.
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
That's some impressive research done there. Now what do you intend to do with it?
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
I definitely thought I remembered being able to pick up the fairy itself, and not have to wait for the bracelet to drop, but for someone who's done this much research, I doubt I'm right.
Joined: 6/26/2007
Posts: 147
The GBA has problems with lag. BIG problems. Then again, I'm not sure if the arrange mode would eliminate the fuss about going through all the levels twice. I know that the triblade isn't available until mid to late in the game. The magic isn't anything spectacular I recall. The only magic that's great in a normal run is the cyclone and dragon, but I don't think either would shorten boss fights. The bracelet does more damage for better armor and more damage up close. The best final boss battle involves gold armor and up-close spamming of the bracelet. Also the pre-bronze daggers are ridiculously dangerous up close because you can fire one every few frames. There are also a few shortcuts in the first half of level 2 that require tricky jumps. Professional does add difficulty, but it also adds enemies, which cause lag like mad. You might wanna try killing some where convenient to reduce lag.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Hot off the heels of the Genesis version, I have decided to look into this game and validate Dannit's research and provide commentary of my own. First, a completed damage chart.
		    | Normal|Upgrade|Magic
		    | S   D | S   D |
----------+-------+-------+-----
Lance	  | 6   9 | 9  10 |2pf
Dagger	 | 4   6 | 7  10 |2pf
Bow	    | 3   4 | 6   9 |
Sickle	 | 6   9 | 9  10 |6
Torch	  | 7   8 |10   8 |3
*Flame	 | 3   3 | 3   3 |
Ax	     | 6   9 | 9  10 |2pf
Blade	  | 6   9 | 9  10 |6
**Bracelet| 3   6 |12  18 |

*Rate seems uncertain; approximately
 per frame; early flame does more damage
**Damage is dependent on distance
  and nothing else; closer = more
S= Standard
D= During double-jump ascent
pf= per frame
Sickle and torch magic are, as stated before, every so often; I've seen it range from 5 to 12 twelve frames. Tri-blade magic hits everything once. Absolutely pathetic. Walking and second jump speed is 256; first jump and damage recoil is 286. Most of the weapons, assuming you can clear the screen fast enough of the ones with only one permitted on screen, can be fired at a rate of one every 12 frames. The torch and the dagger, on the other hand, can be fired once a frame, since you are given two attack buttons. Also note that the double-jump attack has some pretty significant cool down. May I be so bold as to suggest that to torch is worth considering? Sure, it sucks for normal playing, but at close range it's powerful, has a fast firing rate, has magic that encourages getting close, and the flames themselves can be devastating. Failing that, though, there's always the daggers. Edit[/b]: The ending gives you the BWH of the princess. Alrighty...
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
And now for the opening sequence. I'm about three seconds faster than Zurreco's attempt against Astaroth, but can't tell how much faster I was against Nebiroth. It's not too bad, but these guys sure are a pain compared to the Genesis version.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Level the First Can I get some feedback on this? I'm aware I could have handled some of the lag better. In fact, I didn't use magic against the boss because of it.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
It looks fine by me, although your style of playing is very much centered around hinting at a possibility of doing one thing and doing another in the end (jumping on the tombstones, waiting for the waves, not getting on the golden armor despite being a few pixels away, etc.). Unfortunately most of the time it looks like you could have done a better thing, even if it wasn't better or faster by calculations.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Re: The tombstones: These are solid obstacles that can't be passed through; jumping on them is required. Re: The waves: The waves are one hit kill if I'm not standing on the stone pillars. I have no choice but to wait, although that last one can probably be handled a tad faster. Re: The armor: Yup, I pulled a bait and switch there. The idea was to preempt any suggestions that I pick up the gold armor in the first level. By doing what I did, I acknowledged it was there, showed I could have grabbed it if I wanted to, but didn't. Reason is lag. I tested the boss with and without the torch's spell and broke even thanks to it, so why grab the thing that gives me magic? I'll be taking a hit in the next level, so there's really no point in getting it then. That, and it helps alleviate the wait for the next wave. Also, the reason for grabbing the bronze armor when I did was because of non-manipulable chest patterns: it was either then or never. Glad you enjoyed it at least somewhat. ;P
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
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Posts: 5777
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
Re: The tombstones: These are solid obstacles that can't be passed through; jumping on them is required.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. What I meant was that you jumped just before reaching them and it looked a lot like you could do a second jump to jump on a tombstone from that point… but instead you set against it and jumped from a standstill. I'm at work atm, so I can't give you exact frame numbers, but I believe you can locate things I'm talking about yourself.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Oh. Right around frame 9300, I presume, where I stand right next to one before jumping up. Yeah, that's because you can't reach the top of that until the ground reaches a certain height. I tried a good number of things to avoid having to wait, and none of them worked. It's like two pixels too tall to reach.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
gocha
Any
Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 402
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Nao's SGnG WIP (maybe it's not a part of the latest progress, though I can find only the WIP.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl5MK0K418Y At some points, he goes faster than you. Recently he deleted all of articles in his blog and stopped activities, then his SGnG project has been paused/abandoned. He may know some of nice strategies and use them in his WIP, but I don't know any public WIPs except the video above. He may know some of nice strategies and use them in his WIP, but I don't know any public WIPs except the video above. Also, I'm not sure whether he will upload his WIP if you asked him. Anyway, I'm looking forward to SGnG TAS. Keep going, Ferret.
I am usually available on Discord server or Twitter.
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Oh goody, just the sort of thing I was looking for. How did he clear that block?! O_o I must look into this. And it seems you *can* fire daggers before the little explosion clears. Can't do that with the torch. Seems I may have been wrong. Thank you! This will be very helpful. Edit[/b]: Prin Prin's speech is also about 20 seconds shorter in the Japanese version. I might switch over. Edit[/b]: A certain subpixel positioning. That's how he cleared that block. Very difficult to control in this game. -_-
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Ferret Warlord wrote:
Edit[/b]: Prin Prin's speech is also about 20 seconds shorter in the Japanese version. I might switch over.
Generally, switching versions because of a text-based delay isn't really allowed. So unless there are other reasons (like Rygar?), don't.
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Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
I call Bag of Magic Food's Rockman World run as a witness for the defense to the stand.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
I chose the Japanese version to make this movie for a few reasons. 1. The American version makes you wait a good two seconds longer at the title screen before the cursor appears and you can press Start. I don't know why... Maybe the company wanted you to look at the copyrights for a while. :) As a side note, I tried the European version once, and it moves the copyright notices to a separate pre-title screen that takes even longer. The American versions start doing something similar starting with the third game.
The difference between this and the Link's Awakening situation is that this doesn't have a published movie yet. There's no official time to compare against. I don't think very many people would mind.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The main thing that matters is how much text there is. If there's significant amounts, even if it's stupid, viewers will want to be able to read it.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
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It is an arcade-oid game, there's barely any text (and none worth reading, anyway). The other point is that saving 20 sec just by changing a ROM is not a good enough reason to do so, in my opinion. The rules imply that a non-U ROM must have something else that is clearly superior in tool-assisted sense, and shorter intro is a thing everyone can take advantage of regardless of the tool usage.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
moozooh wrote:
It is an arcade-oid game, there's barely any text (and none worth reading, anyway). The other point is that saving 20 sec just by changing a ROM is not a good enough reason to do so, in my opinion. The rules imply that a non-U ROM must have something else that is clearly superior in tool-assisted sense, and shorter intro is a thing everyone can take advantage of regardless of the tool usage.
Yeah, this and the "everyone wants to read text" bit. Even if it's insignificant. Nothing personal (really!), though.
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Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Okay, okay, I'll give into social pressure. Yeesh... (acknowledged, Xkeeper) Anyway, overhauled level 1, now 287 frames faster. I decided to keep my weapon grab method, but found a real nice place to upgrade my armor. The dagger was somewhat inconvenient in a few places, but I made it work. Reload count is slightly higher than it should be since I already had half of level 2 done when I started redoing this. Next item of business: Determining where to get the bracelet Resolved! It's surprisingly effective against bosses 3 & 4!
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.