Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Aha! that is very good to know. (um, which 2 obvious ones? hehe I'm not that far, nor have I played this game.) What is collected at the end of the Floyd missions? I don't remember seeing the Floyd missions in the SDA run, either cuz I missed or haven't watched it in its entirey.
Just want to make it clear to you that if you don't use Floyd as an assistive player later on then the single player run won't stand against someone whose using Floyd as an assisistive player. I remember when playing this on a console when during one of the boss fights where you hide behind a rock, I would then grab the second controller so I could fire at the boss as Floyd, since it was neccesary to hide while the boss was doing his deadly attack sequence. It really can't be that hard, since he's nothing more than a second indepenent gun.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
But here's the thing: Floyd only has a double plasma pistol type damage, it's not that damaging. I'm assuming using tri rockets/homing missiles on all bosses to seepd up fights. Only if the time wasted waiting behind a rock is significant would it matter much, or if Floyd was used constantly, neither of which are true I'm assuming (not sure about the first, sure about the second.) I can ignore damage to a certain degree so that I can still go out and shoot at this boss; plus, it's going to be Tool Assisted, so asusme more/accurate shots to kill the boss quicker, especially if I use life as a resource to get in more hits.
So while he is a potential time saver, by being an additional turret with infinite ammo, I think you're not giving enough credit to the main character's ability to tool assistedly reduce fight length.
Couldn't you just keep floyd shooting, constantly, using a macro? That might get annoying, and he might hit one of the tribals, but I'm sure it will help in some areas.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
DK64_MASTER wrote:
Couldn't you just keep floyd shooting, constantly, using a macro? That might get annoying, and he might hit one of the tribals, but I'm sure it will help in some areas.
I think that not only would get annoying, but would look incredibly sloppy also. I agree w/ comicalflop on this one, from my memory of the game there are very few places where floyd would actually be a benefit to the run, since perfect reflexes and aim are going to be used, there will be ample time to get in all the necessary shots. And if Floyd use would only save a few seconds at best, and it's much more frustrating for the maker to incorporate him in, I think it's best to leave him out.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I think I should be done with Goldenwood before someone starts making an AVI, for the sake of completeness. I think Arcadic Gamer and DeHackEd showed interest.
So yeah, it's going to be one controller for the reasons I stated. If the file can be changed to 2 controller mid way and Floyd speeds up certian segments, then I'll do that, but for the time being it's just gonna be 1 player controlling 1 character.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Holy shit this is difficult. I'm nearing the end of the world, and there's another open ruins area where 1 tribal can be saved, with the nig huge drone blocking the door. I blazed through that section, sniped a sniper, turned around and sniped a drone just as he turned around the corner, and killed the last two drones and the tough one in record time. The problem? there's the still one missing? what the hell?
I can tell that these rooms are going to have to require a shitload of planning to make sure every drone is killed. I had a few problems getitng head shots, so instead switched to Machine gun to finish them off (which does the job nicely incidently. so it has a use more than sniping out of the air.) I'm going to have to go back and see where I missed a drone, and hopefully I won't have lost too much.
Well, I guess this guarantees this will take no less than a year.
Hopefully by tomorrow I'll have fixed this section, and fingers crossed have the WIP done sometime this week/weekend.
shouldn't you play through the game before you tas it? I just can't imagine playing optimally through something if it's my first time playing ever. (note I haven't looked at the wip yet nor have I played the game so I'm not one to judge quality, I'm just saying.)
edit: also adding a second controller would require inserting four empty bytes every four bytes, and also changing the bytes that represent the number of controllers to two and maybe other stuff (it's been a while since I've looked at the exact making of a .m64) and most importantly you'd have to hope that having an idle second controller would not affect the random elements.
Hmm, yeah, have you given a lot of thought to which weapons, weapon refills, and weapon capacity upgrades to pick up along the way? (I seem to recall that the treasure chests containing the weapons will give out more than one copy of the weapon if you can get more than one character to that chest, but each capacity upgrade can only be taken once ever.)
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
Oh, someone's going to pick this up? Awesome. The SDA run did an excellent job but with these techniques I'm not surprised you've already saved, what, almost a minute?
Seriously though, if you're going to get the fastest time, you need to use Floyd. There's really no going around it. It's not just the double plasma ammo, it's also the ability to play around during the long running sequences. Zoom in with R and you have two crosshairs that can dance around each other or chase each other or write words etc. etc. while you're running running running, which you'll be doing a lot of. It'll keep the movie watchable.
I'm going to check out your WIP now, looking forward to good stuff!
OH and to whomever was complaining about desyncs: Uncheck Raw Data. That's the key. Make sure it stays off when you're making the run, too.
--Alright, I really loved the run so far! Even with the strafing there wasn't a whole lot of "hey let's look at the wall textures repeat" and all those heads bouncing around are always fun. Pro tip: On levels that don't require you collecting the tribals, shoot them instead! Their heads come off and are collectible, though they don't give you 'cheats' every 100 collected like the bug heads do.
Busting open that box for the yellow key could be done better I would hope, but I'm not going to nitty-gritty you and ruin your motivation. Losing half a second at the start of a four-hour-plus run isn't going to kill anyone.
I stand by my earlier statement about Floyd. With this spiffy TAS input plugin it seems like he would be easier to control! Wish I had that back when I did my testrun with a half-broken gamecube controller...
Just use the path I outlined in the text file in the first post, and do the in level parts how the SDA run does them, but in any area where you only have to kill one or two guys, it's cooler to just ignore everyone else ;) And try to never get hit, trust me, it won't be impossible. Really, with Floyd around, no one should ever even get close to you. With him you can kill two guys per input--oh I can't WAIT to watch those screens of flying enemies get decimated in a smooth pattern and in the space of a second while still walking sideways to the door. Woohoo! I don't really know if he'll help during the bosses--spamming those tri-rockets is going to be laggy enough yet strong enough--but the in-level stuff will definitely be helped.
If you need any help figuring out that text file I sloppily wrote for myself or anything, I'm willing to help. I might peruse the SDA run again to think of better ways to do things but I really believe he nailed it, as far as in-level stuff is concerned.
Good luck with this, you are a braver, more patient man than I could hope to be ;)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
bkDJ wrote:
shouldn't you play through the game before you tas it? I just can't imagine playing optimally through something if it's my first time playing ever. (note I haven't looked at the wip yet nor have I played the game so I'm not one to judge quality, I'm just saying.)
edit: also adding a second controller would require inserting four empty bytes every four bytes, and also changing the bytes that represent the number of controllers to two and maybe other stuff (it's been a while since I've looked at the exact making of a .m64) and most importantly you'd have to hope that having an idle second controller would not affect the random elements.
Somone else brought this up in the SDA... it's just my style, I did play with the ROM a bunch when I first downloaded it, and while I haven't played the game through I've become familiar enough with TASing it.
to solve the problem of not having played it:
1) I have Twisted Eye's route and the SDA run, I am extremely good at knowing where stuff is and how to do things by watching real time videos, as evident by my DKC2 102%, and SSB Kirby High Score
2) I'm going to in each room/area play normally, before I start TASing to just noodle around and see if I can find the trigger for the door. those playing around in rooms will be my test runs, since a "test run" of the entire game is not possible at all, because it requires memorization of the whole game- I'm memorizing parts of the game on little bit at a time.
3) I'm using personal intuition and playing style to find the fastest way to do things.
And, apparently my friend Tony mentioned that he has JFG and that he'll bring it to the dorms, we have a N64 in the room next to ours. So there'll be that, but I'm more about test running for barely more than a minute ahead and TASing/focusing per room, already knowing that the route I have laid out is perfect. (Which we'll need to determine btw, I think Twisted Eye's is good, but we'll see.)
About the second controller, I have a 2nd .m64 with 2 controllers that ends right at the very start of Goldenwood. I found that, it'd be a much larger file, and the frame count is all messed up, it goes by twos instead of ones, which throws me off a little. Nitsuja's plugin should work, but here's a big thing:
I don't know what Floyd in action looks like, I don't remember him being used in the SDA run. If I had a clear concept of what it looks like when he's used, I'd have more reason to use him. I just keep getting the idea of him blocking up the screen and shooting with a weak double plasma pistol. if someone could get a video or can accurately describe what it looks like when he's in action (he doesn't come until the swamp world so I can't reach him) that'd greatly affect my decision.
Also any way to incorporate 2 controllers without affecting my progress would be great. I don't know how inserting bytes into it to make 2nd controller work, or if it would screw everything up. I hope I won't have to redo with my 2nd .m64 already set up, but if I can't get my 1 controller .m64 to get a 2nd controller and if everyone proves that Floyd is going to save time, then I'll try to get it in.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Hmm, yeah, have you given a lot of thought to which weapons, weapon refills, and weapon capacity upgrades to pick up along the way? (I seem to recall that the treasure chests containing the weapons will give out more than one copy of the weapon if you can get more than one character to that chest, but each capacity upgrade can only be taken once ever.)
Yes I've spent a great deal thinking about it. I've tried thinking about which weapons to skip, and for speed I think, similar to MMX 2 that picking up upgrades can only speed things up in the end. Weapon refills are not a biggie, the enemies frop ammo for whatever gun you're holding at the moment, I'll be saving shots anyways, and most ammo in crates are a long the way. Capacity upgrades are a big deal, meaning with my conserving of shots that less ammo is needed to be picked up. the geminiy capacity is good to increase health, because life is going to be a resource, I know I was able to redo the underground without taking damage at all but that's not going to hold for the next 4 hours of play. (I already got hit when getting the machine gun, although I manipulated the drone standing in the way to not block my path.)
Twisted Eye wrote:
Oh, someone's going to pick this up? Awesome. The SDA run did an excellent job but with these techniques I'm not surprised you've already saved, what, almost a minute?
Seriously though, if you're going to get the fastest time, you need to use Floyd. There's really no going around it. It's not just the double plasma ammo, it's also the ability to play around during the long running sequences. Zoom in with R and you have two crosshairs that can dance around each other or chase each other or write words etc. etc. while you're running running running, which you'll be doing a lot of. It'll keep the movie watchable.
I'm going to check out your WIP now, looking forward to good stuff!
OH and to whomever was complaining about desyncs: Uncheck Raw Data. That's the key. Make sure it stays off when you're making the run, too.
--Alright, I really loved the run so far! Even with the strafing there wasn't a whole lot of "hey let's look at the wall textures repeat" and all those heads bouncing around are always fun. Pro tip: On levels that don't require you collecting the tribals, shoot them instead! Their heads come off and are collectible, though they don't give you 'cheats' every 100 collected like the bug heads do.
Busting open that box for the yellow key could be done better I would hope, but I'm not going to nitty-gritty you and ruin your motivation. Losing half a second at the start of a four-hour-plus run isn't going to kill anyone.
I stand by my earlier statement about Floyd. With this spiffy TAS input plugin it seems like he would be easier to control! Wish I had that back when I did my testrun with a half-broken gamecube controller...
Just use the path I outlined in the text file in the first post, and do the in level parts how the SDA run does them, but in any area where you only have to kill one or two guys, it's cooler to just ignore everyone else ;) And try to never get hit, trust me, it won't be impossible. Really, with Floyd around, no one should ever even get close to you. With him you can kill two guys per input--oh I can't WAIT to watch those screens of flying enemies get decimated in a smooth pattern and in the space of a second while still walking sideways to the door. Woohoo! I don't really know if he'll help during the bosses--spamming those tri-rockets is going to be laggy enough yet strong enough--but the in-level stuff will definitely be helped.
If you need any help figuring out that text file I sloppily wrote for myself or anything, I'm willing to help. I might peruse the SDA run again to think of better ways to do things but I really believe he nailed it, as far as in-level stuff is concerned.
Good luck with this, you are a braver, more patient man than I could hope to be ;)
Yep, I've just signed away the rights to all of my free time for the next 1-2 years. :P
The Strafing is a little difficult, because I have to test 360 different degrees, and also whether I should be pressing left or right C. I try to run in straight lines as much as possible, but obviously corners must be turned. I hope the strafing so far looks very smooth.
For shooting tribals, is that when you're just going through a level and not collecting them? Is it when you go back and save them with a different character? I'd have to look for cases like that, if I can squeeze that in, otherwise if it wastest times than not. I love the AI of this game, the tribals stop their work, and run towards you. :)
The yellow key segment was 3 seconds faster than an earlier version I did. I shot the crate twice beforehand, and from the angle I was going at I had to wait and run up against it a little bit or else I'd miss the crate, plus I also shot the drone with a headshot by accident and was at the optimal angle to get both tribals in one strafe, so I'm keeping it.
Remember, when strafing the aiming of the shots is a little weird. Unless you're close to an enemy, you shoot at a very strange angle, not straight in front of you if you were normal running.
Your text file looks like a great route, but it could be a little more detailed, it definetly was confusing. If you could explain it or update it to be much more detailed that'd be great.
Titus Kwok wrote:
w00t
not sure how, but I got it working, and I have a good savestate
good to hear!
This is going to be the best and most difficult run that I have ever or probably will ever work on. I really look foward to it. I also will absolutely love everyone to contribute everything and anything possible- routes, test runs, ideas, strategies, techniques, input, etc.
Don't forget you can turn the use of Floyd on or off by hitting the Start button on the second controller, so you don't have to use the menu to activate him. If you want, you could turn him on ONLY on the moments when you need to shoot, so you don't hear his whirring at any other time. That could be cool.
Also remember that if you've turned on Floyd, the second controller controls him in missions, but if it's turned off, control goes to the first controller. I think, anyway. But what am I saying? That's a long way off! You still have two worlds to get through before messing with that.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Because of high demand, I am restarting using 2 controllers. Good thing I had my backup 2nd .m64 all ready and waiting for me. Just got to the huge introduction within Goldenwood that explains to kill the drones, free the tribals, etc. After exiting my ship I try to travel in a straighter line, and in the area with the first trigger door I killed the flying drones faster, and shoot the green guy to avoid having to jump over him (I can't do that the first time, because I don't have a good angle to shoot him. Those drones die to explosions as well, so I only take two shots in their direction, and the first one that dies kills the third one. hehe.
I'm a little miffed to starting over, but it's for the best I guess. I can probably improve the sniper drone kill, by shooting him earlier, improve the crate by a half second, probably run in straighter lines in a few areas and maybe some other miniscule improvements.
Here's a WIP to satisfy curiosity:
Jet Force Gemini V2
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Sure, that'd be great.
Just got to the underground section, killed more drones for entertainment purposes without losing any speed, all head shots so far, and killed the sniper drone earlier to activate the door sooner. The only thin that looks like a mistake is rescuing tribal #2 and 3, but Juno has veyr poor traction when changing direction espececially if starfing, so I normal walk to get to a better position and I think saved a teensy bit of time as compared to the last one in that regard, and probably saved 1-2 seconds overall, though I haven't checked.
Overall, it looks smoother, and more drones meet a grisly head shot fate without losing speed which is more entertaining. In fact, I make 3 fast kills right after the two tribals (one of them you have to use frame advance to see, I was suprised I shot him at the angle) and 5 frames later kill the sniper, which looks pretty cool IMO. I'll work all of tonight and see how far I get, and get a WIP up before I call it a night.
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
http://www.twistedeye.net/TAS/JFG Floyd Testing - Twistedeye.m64
First, I figure out how the controls work on my keyboard. Should've done that first--
Second, I use Floyd normally.
Then, I hit Fire every other frame to see how rapid he is...and rapid he is!
Then it's playaround between Floyd and Juno's shots, which can only be seen in frame advance--if you're going to do that in the actual movie, you'll need to move them very slightly each frame for it to be noticable, and there's a range where Juno's direction doesn't change at all while his aim is moving, so you can keep on track.--Holding jump (C^) when targetting keeps you moving forward, strafe works the same, just so you know. I usually forgot then when playing the game...heh
Later I see just how rapidfire the weapons are. I don't have all of them, though, and the homing missiles are out of ammo, but the plasma shotgun comes out a surprise winner here, being just as fast as the machine gun or Floyd's gun.
Man, that TAS Input Plugin is amazing! It's so easy to work with! By the time I was halfway through making this test movie, I wasn't even using the keyboard at all anymore, other than spacebar to frame advance.
I'll rewrite that text file next, brb. I'm 99% sure that the path outlined is the fastest.
Item #1: Glide64 handles the video correctly, but interacts badly with the Dynamic Recompiler. Might be a memory allocation issue. I have a sample AVI. When the AVI stop playing, it's because mupen64 blew itself up. Interpreter or Pure Interpreter have no trouble, but they're not sync compatible with Dynamic Recompiler.
Item #2: I could modify your M64 for two controllers if you want. Dunno if it'll break sync, but I'm willing to try.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Twisted eye: Thanks a bunch, I'll take a look at the movie. The TAS Input Plugin is my friend, I'm starting to less and less use my gamepad and more and more use the plugin. It's become about 50/50 now. I use the gamepad for pusing the fire/weapon switch buttons, and for the plugin to hold down buttons and tilt the analog. and the keyboard for frame advance.
DeHackEd: Mupen blew itself up? hehe... thnx for AVI, hopefully you'll find right settings for making it work.
I restarted the run using two controllers ingrained. I've already made improvements and just finished the underground section in Goldenwood, but thanks for offering to try and insert two controllers into the 1 controller .m64. I got it covered.
I can submit a WIP of the first "area cleared" as soon as I finish *within* the next hour. (estimated.)
Edit: That AVI was very high quality, it didn't have the weird thing in the upper left corner and the graphic bug of weird colors spikes was gone. What's weird is that I didn't start moving for a while as soon as I had control, hopefully that won't show up in the new .m64 I'm working on. My guess is to make the analog moving beforehand to ensure that the character moves on the first possible frame.
If you're starting over, could I ask you use the Interpreter or Pure Interpreter? Besides better compatibility, they'll make the AVI MUCH nicer, like the one I'm making. (Apparently it even makes the intro a bit shorter). Unforunately it means increased CPU demands during emulation.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
How do I use interpreter or pure interpreter? (.... and what is it?) I hope it's not something I have to set at the beginning.
And yeah I noticed the intro was a bit shorter.
as promised, WIP: Goldenwood "first area cleared"
11 seconds faster than marshmallow's, and ~1 second faster than my previous version.
It's in the General tab in the main Settings dialog. Interpreter mode is more demanding to run but less prone to errors. I don't believe that setting is stored in the movie file, which will be inconvenient for other people watching your M64s, but it looks to be worth using here anyway.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Alright did some testing, so as I make it have the general setting as interpreter? Or is not nescessary on my part? I assume it would be convenient for others, because they can change the setting in their mupen. Or does it not work that way?
I'll keep the setting in my mupen as interpreter from now on, see if it works. Unless it starts to tax my laptop, then I'm just going to have to keep it with what I had.
